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Originally posted by Eric J Really? Interesting. The thing that has been keeping me away from the mopho and the tetra is the lack of dedicated controls. How much menu diving is necessary on these units?

If you want to program sounds from scratch, there is a lot of menu-diving required with either of these two synths. However, they both come with a free software editor from Soundtower, which is actually very nice and intuitive. The way I worked with my Mopho was that I'd program sounds using the software, then make liberal use of the 4 assignable mod knobs for each patch to allow a wide range of real-time tweaking from the front panel (along with the dedicated front panel knobs). That's workable, but it's nowhere near as hands-on as a P08, PEK, or MEK. Even the desktop Evolver with its matrix-style interface is quicker and more intuitive to program from its front panel than the Mopho and Tetra are.

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quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik If you want to program sounds from scratch, there is a lot of menu-diving required with either of these two synths. However, they both come with a free software editor from Soundtower, which is actually very nice and intuitive. The way I worked with my Mopho was that I'd program sounds using the software, then make liberal use of the 4 assignable mod knobs for each patch to allow a wide range of real-time tweaking from the front panel (along with the dedicated front panel knobs). That's workable, but it's nowhere near as hands-on as a P08, PEK, or MEK. Even the desktop Evolver with its matrix-style interface is quicker and more intuitive to program from its front panel than the Mopho and Tetra are.

See, that's one of the big things in favor of picking up the P08 instead of a Tetra or Mopho. The hands-on tweakability is very tempting and way more inspiring than a mouse. Having dedicated controls for nearly every parameter makes things so much easier.

I hated having to dig through menus on my previous hardware synths, and it was a factor in my decision to sell them. My previous hardware was all VA and PCM, so there was always plenty of menu diving and none of them really sounded any better than my software equivalents anyway. The P08, and other true analogs, have mostly dedicated controls, and have an element to their sound and usability that I cannot reproduce with software.

Another big plus is I can have it double as my primary MIDI keyboard and that makes it a multi-tasker. I'm not really looking to have it serve as a bass synth, but more of a poly pad/lead/element synth.

Frankly, I'm starting to question if I even need to consider an outboard mono synth for bass, especially considering Alan's comparisons to the Minimonsta. I always knew how much I liked the Minimonsta, but I never knew how it stood up to the real thing, until now.

It seems to me that at this point, you aren't interest in a mono, so your options are DSI Tetra/Prophet or Andy. I could never seem to get any decent pads out of the Prophet... but the Andy rocks them.

Like I said, the Andy can do everything the Prophet can and sound better at it. But, the Prophet may be enough for you. It's a lot smaller, so reselling wouldn't be a big deal. Once you buy an Andromeda, you're kinda stuck.

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Originally posted by alanzo It seems to me that at this point, you aren't interest in a mono

Well, the way I am looking at it, I'll get a poly first because I think it will be more versatile. If I already had an outboard poly, then the situation might be different. I hope I haven't given you the impression that I am dismissing your suggestions, because that was not my intent. I think they have helped me make my decision to go poly before mono. I figure I can get the analog poly first, then look into a mono.

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Originally posted by alanzo so your options are DSI Tetra/Prophet or Andy. I could never seem to get any decent pads out of the Prophet... but the Andy rocks them.

Really? You had some pretty cool sounding pads on your demo. That being said, getting pads out of the unit is going to be important to me.

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Originally posted by alanzo Like I said, the Andy can do everything the Prophet can and sound better at it. But, the Prophet may be enough for you. It's a lot smaller, so reselling wouldn't be a big deal. Once you buy an Andromeda, you're kinda stuck.

The main thing steering me away from the A6 right now is the sheer complexity. I don't want to get a good outboard analog then only use the presets. I'm not a great programmer, but I'm not a total newb either. I 'm just afraid that the A6 is SO complicated that it'll be a bit like trying to run before I learn to walk, you know what I mean?

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Some more testing of the filter. The Pulse seems to be quite overdriven

Thats why i like the pulse! You obviously have the oscillators turned up high. Turn them right down and turn up the master instead. You will then get a completely clear, clean sound. Turn them right up and you get quite heavy analogue distortion. Its the way the pulse was built to overdrive the mixer section!

It makes the pulse unbelievably versitile as far as tone goes as you can just dial in as much grit or smoothness as you want.

Its a similar effect to routing the headphone output of the voyager back into the external input and turning up the mixer level.

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Originally posted by Eric J The main thing steering me away from the A6 right now is the sheer complexity. I don't want to get a good outboard analog then only use the presets. I'm not a great programmer, but I'm not a total newb either. I 'm just afraid that the A6 is SO complicated that it'll be a bit like trying to run before I learn to walk, you know what I mean?

What aspect in particular seems complex?

There are a few things that I do to make it not so complex... I ignore decay 2 and release 2, I pretty much always set the patche's envelope processing to fast/snappy (there's a dedicated button for doing this), and I typically won't do a whole lot of modulation. I ignore "croutes". Whatever they are, it's not important. I also only use the analog distortion for FX. I only ever use one slope for the decay envelope.

Most of the buttons you see are for modulation. But once you figure out how modulation works, it all kind of makes sense. It's a lot like a modular synth and all the mod buttons are your patch cables. You click the "mod" button for, say, OSC1, then select the source and the destination. LFO 1 -> pitch, for example. Or for filter, you select the Mod button next to the filter knob, select mod wheel -> frequency.

The other buttons are "view" buttons. That's just for viewing the settings BEFORE you make any changes to them. So you have a basis for return.

It probably mostly looks daunting because there is no switching between OSCs/envelopes/filters/lfos. Not a single button or knob shares a function. It's a lot like the Q Keyboard.

Seriously, after just a bit of manual reading, and experimentation, I can attack that keyboard like we've been married for a decade. It's actually quite fun since you always have to be moving your hands around this giant cock-pit of a synth. Here are a few things I DO NOT like about the andy:

1. It doesn't come in a rack. Because of this, it takes up a lot of space. I accidentally spilled beer on the keyboard when it was right on my desktop (in front of me). Now the upper octave doesn't work (just the keyboard, the notes still trigger through MIDI). So now I have to un-do all the screws, be careful to not break the extremely fragile plastic modling on the sides, and clean up the keyboard.

I'll do it when I feel like tackling a four hour project. I'd highly recommend putting it off to the side and using a simple MIDI controller. That's what I'm doing now. You have a bigger desk than me, so it may work. But it is a desktop hog and you don't want to spill anything on it or whatever.

2. The third envelope is kind of slow to start modulating. There's literally a split second delay before it does. Makes it not as useful as other 3rd envelopes.

3. Some aspects were thought out way too much. The envelopes in particular. Who needs two decays and releases? They also allow you to select different slopes for the decay. I only ever use one out of the 8 or so you can choose. "Linear 1".

4. If it ever just stops working, which I guess isn't likely, but who knows, I'd have to either find a way to get a replacement voice or CPU board, or just buy another one. The nice thing about the Andy vs vintage analogs is there are a shit load of them out there. Same goes for the Prophet '08. You won't have a hard time finding a replacement. I'd like to think I'm in-it for the long-haul with the Andy, so I am expecting that some day it will stop working. Who knows, though, most Jupiter 8s and Prophet Vs still work.


On a side note, I snagged a demo of Jupiter 8v to compare it to the Andy. They're actually quite close a number of times. I'm going to do some more comparing later today... maybe I'll put up a few demos.

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quote:

Originally posted by alanzo What aspect in particular seems complex? There are a few things that I do to make it not so complex... I ignore decay 2 and release 2, I pretty much always set the patche's envelope processing to fast/snappy (there's a dedicated button for doing this), and I typically won't do a whole lot of modulation. I ignore "croutes". Whatever they are, it's not important. I also only use the analog distortion for FX. I only ever use one slope for the decay envelope.

Yeah the 7-stage envelopes were a bit daunting. I had a Roland JD-800 for a short time, and I had the same problem with those. Its good to know I can jut ignore the decay2 and release2 and then they'll behave like typical 5 stage envelopes (ADSTR).

quote:

Originally posted by alanzo Most of the buttons you see are for modulation. But once you figure out how modulation works, it all kind of makes sense. It's a lot like a modular synth and all the mod buttons are your patch cables. You click the "mod" button for, say, OSC1, then select the source and the destination. LFO 1 -> pitch, for example. Or for filter, you select the Mod button next to the filter knob, select mod wheel -> frequency. The other buttons are "view" buttons. That's just for viewing the settings BEFORE you make any changes to them. So you have a basis for return. It probably mostly looks daunting because there is no switching between OSCs/envelopes/filters/lfos. Not a single button or knob shares a function. It's a lot like the Q Keyboard.

OK, that does make me feel a little bit better.

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Originally posted by alanzo On a side note, I snagged a demo of Jupiter 8v to compare it to the Andy. They're actually quite close a number of times. I'm going to do some more comparing later today... maybe I'll put up a few demos.

I'll be very interested in that, since the Jupiter 8V is also fairly prominent in my setup. The analog pads on that one are outstanding, and its great for weird FX. If they would only make the interface a lot bigger.

Now, a couple of questions about the quality of the A6.

1. Did you buy yours new or used?

2. I have read about some tuning problems and bad voice chips, have you experienced any of these issues?

3. Have you had to deal with Alesis support at all? Lots of threads moaning on how awful they are.

I'm a little fearful about dropping $3K on a synth with little to no support safety net. There are some threads over on electro-music.com that talk about needing to replace voice boards for like $800, and getting in there and soldering parts. That stuff is not in my wheelhouse.

I'm really torn here. They both seem like good units, but I can only get one. The Andromeda is more expensive, but loads of people, including yourself, say its the best modern analog poly. I have heard a LOT of cool sounds that would be immediately useful for me. However, the unit has been seemingly abandoned by Alesis, and new units are only produced in "batches"? I fear getting one and having it break 6 months later and cost me $1,000 to fix. Now I have sunk $4,000 into a unit? That's really scary.

The P08 is cheaper, new, and has way better support, but the more I listen to demos, I think you are right in that it just doesn't have the sonic palette of the A6. I have heard some cool analog strings, but nothing I would call a "pad" in the traditional sense. Being able to produce usable pads is important to me. A lot of the sounds I heard are definitely cool, but not necessarily useful for my type of music. It only has a Low pass filter, and no built in FX (not a huge deal).

Yes, when you turn any of the Decay 2 / Release 2 knobs all the way to the left, the light turns off and they are literally bypassed... it then becomes an ADSR. There is no time control and there is a D2 and R2 level, but I ignore that as well since I ignore decay/release 2.

One of the things I really like about the Andy is how quirky the instrument is. It has a lot of neat little things that you would only get from an analog. Turning the OSC level up past 30 begins to over-drive the circuit, for example. Also, when the sub osc is only a little way up, it doesn't sound like it's there, rather it just fattens the OSC its tied to (there is a sub for each osc).

I got mine used. It was a rare find and deal on eBay. It was listed pretty poorly, bad pics, not a good explanation. It went for $1650 including S/H if I remember correctly. it had a broken rear voice output (8/16 voices -- not one of the main outs). But it turns out the output still works, it was just cosmetically damaged.

After I bought and paid, it turns out the unit had been in storage since it was manufactured. In 2000! The person I bought it from bought it brand new from a dealer/collector only a few months before.

This is a huge win for me because it was practically brand new and was manufactured BEFORE Alesis was bought out by Numark and shipped manufacturing over to Taiwan. That's why there are turning problems (and also why you should never outsource). They fucked it up and an entire batch of who knows how many Andromedas had a few dead (untunable) voices.

So long as you avoid one that was manufactured during that batch, you won't have an issue. It was some time in 2005, I believe. You can google around to get the specifics. But it was just that single batch of Andromedas. They fixed it right after.

Soldering and such is not my cup-a-tea, either. But the voice and CPU boards are quite easy to swap. Here's a picture of mine, I took it apart to fix a broken key. Now I need to do it again to clean out the beer. :\ http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_rScBRKlTd...-h/DSCN1922.JPG

The problem is finding a board. I wouldn't want to have to buy an entirely new keyboard if, say, the voices were dead. But a good thing is that in the settings, you can disable voices if one goes dead. If 3 out of 16 go ten years from now, I won't be too flustered.

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Andy vs Jupiter 8v. First plays the andy, then Jupiter 8v. They alternate back and forth. VERY similar. Need to do some unison tests.

http://www.amonvision.com/aspnet_client/12.mp3

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quote:

Originally posted by Eric J The P08 is cheaper, new, and has way better support, but the more I listen to demos, I think you are right in that it just doesn't have the sonic palette of the A6.

I don't own an A6, but I have no doubt that you are correct there. However, I would add that I haven't heard very many demos that really show off how usable the P08 is - most of the demos seem to be showing off how much it can sound like a Prophet 5 (i.e., relatively boring 70s/80s sounds).

quote:

Originally posted by Eric J I have heard some cool analog strings, but nothing I would call a "pad" in the traditional sense. Being able to produce usable pads is important to me. A lot of the sounds I heard are definitely cool, but not necessarily useful for my type of music. It only has a Low pass filter, and no built in FX (not a huge deal).

True again. The P08 is capable of producing some killer pads, BUT, the 8 voices is a severe limitation. The architecture of the P08 provides two layers (A & B) for each patch, so you can create some beautiful evolving layered pads with it (especially when you invoke the step sequencer), but each layer uses one voice, so you're left with 4-note polyphony when doing so. Voice stealing is VERY noticeable at that point.

So, if you want something specifically/primarily for pads, I'd look at other synths with more voices, or plan on recording multiple different patches and layering the audio with a P08. As alanzo mentioned earlier, the NL3 (or NL2X) is an incredible synth for pads (and just about anything else) - it's not analog, but it has 24 voices, lots of modulation, multiple filter types, etc.

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Andy first, then Jupiter 8v. Again, VERY close. The Jupiter is just a little darker so I put in 3db of treble boost. Now I see why so many people have been going to soft synths! Still need to do some more comparisons...

http://www.amonvision.com/aspnet_client/13.mp3

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Last edited by alanzo on Aug-09-2009 at 17:46

Hey Eric i know Cyro normally posts up some links to equipments i beat him to it this time lol
im not sure what you have decided but i found these on VSE thought you might be interested

Both are for Andromeda's

http://www.vintagesynth.com/forum/v...php?f=9&t=50009

http://www.vintagesynth.com/forum/v...php?f=9&t=50418

from what i can see they are both still available


hope the decision making is coming along

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