I use my gear to impress women. I don't know how to use any of it, but the LEDs sure look neat.

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Originally posted by Richard Butler Lot of people that have'nt delivered a decent track, yet seem qualified to make pronouncements that EDM is'nt musically complex.

I can only speak for myself here, and since I seem to be the main focus of this thread, here goes. First, what constitutes a "decent track" is entirely subjective. Anyone can use the argument that the tracks produced by us hobbyists aren't "decent" to make their point, so that assertion holds little, if any, value. That said, having read many of your posts, it's obvious that your measure of what constitutes an accomplished musician is being signed to a label. I tend to disagree with that as a generality, but for the sake of addressing your point, most of us with "pro gear" on this forum are signed to labels (myself included). And, based on the overwhelmingly positive response that I receive to my tracks and the support I've gotten from some top DJs (e.g., Marcus Schossow), I'd say that counts for something. Other forum members here are doing far better than that. Does that in and of itself qualify us to proclaim the relative complexity of EDM? That depends on each person and how much experience they have with other genres.

What qualifies me to proclaim that EDM isn't complex is the fact that (a) I have a BA in Music Theory/Composition and (b) I worked as a professional musician for a large portion of my life and have experience performing and recording numerous styles and most likely have more live and studio performing experience than anyone on this forum. I'm not saying that to brag or to claim that I am the best musician in the world (or even on this forum, for that matter), but I did spend 4 years of my life learning under college professors and have a diploma tucked away in a box somewhere to show for it. It may sound arrogant, but my hard work does count for something and certainly does qualify me to have an educated opinion on the relative complexity of the many different musical styles that I have experience with.

Now, before you go away thinking "damn, that cryo is such an arrogant prick" (I already know that), consider that you made the claim above and I am just responding to your assertion that making what you perceive as a "decent" EDM track has little/no bearing on whether or not someone is qualified to understand the differences in musical forms. Also, don't think for a minute that my education and experience makes me think that I'm some great musician, performer, or producer. I know my limitations better than anyone and I also know that I'm not the best or most creative composer out there. I did very well in school (graduated with a 4.0 GPA in my music classes) because I was a very good student, not because I was a great musician. There are people that I know personally, on this and other forums, etc. who have a fraction of my experience or knowledge, but are far better at producing EDM (or many other genres) than I am and better musicians. Hell, some of my students when I was a bass instructor were technically more proficient than I am. Which brings me back on topic and back to a point I made earlier - you shouldn't judge a book by its cover, or in this case, a producer by his/her gear and their EDM tracks. This is all just my story - you'd probably be surprised to find out how much talent and musical knowledge many people on this forum have that isn't apparent from looking at their studio photos or listening to their EDM tracks.

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Originally posted by Richard Butler If it ain't so hard - post up your best track here and we'll see eh

...we'll see what, exactly? You want us to post our best EDM track to prove that it isn't complex? That makes no sense. Think about the creativity-limiting boundaries that are placed on EDM tracks (e.g., 4/floor kick drums, narrow tempo ranges, quasi-standard buildup/breakdown arrangements, etc.). How about you post your best/most complex track and we'll do a thorough harmonic/melodic analysis of it, then compare it to one of Bach's simpler piano sonatas or a Handel opera or even some jazz standards and you can see for yourself how simple EDM is in the larger context of musical forms.

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Originally posted by Richard Butler Classical music allows you more freedom and less constraint and IS easier. A classical piece can wander and meander - no big deal, less discipline.

Richard, Richard, Richard...you really should consider your credibility before making such statements.

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Originally posted by DEAD_MOOSE yikes. another great example of someone with the belief they need the most up to date equipment/software to be able to perform. just like the idiots who go straight to a apple laptop because "you need one to be a pro". we all see them.

Hey Dumbass, stop putting words in my mouth. Go read what I said again. I asked you how you run Logic on a PC. I never said I believe people need the most up-to-date equipment/software to be able to perform. Just because you failed to understand a simple question and failed to reply in the proper manner, I think you just made yourself look like an idiot.

And by the way, you need to stop observing what other people do so much and concentrate on your ownself. It seems like you got alot of self confidence issues. Which justifies why you go around exerting your best effort to put others down. It makes you feel alot better, doesn't it.

Also, people like Cryophonik who own alot of expensive gear .. atleast they are putting it to use and they are selling records and that's their hobby also.
So Dead_Moose, where is your myspace with your 'uber-tracks' with your 'not-so-uber gear'? Rather than shit-talking, let us listen to some of your productions. Then we can all be the judge.

lol @ people thinking EDM is musically complex. Productionally complex? maybe. But musically complex? not by a long shot. Its easy to believe that when mainstream music is hip hop, pop, and alternative rock though. There are a massive amount of music forms out there that I didn't even know about till I took World Music in college that are far more complex than EDM and once your hear them you soon realize just how simple EDM is musically.

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Originally posted by meriter Your primary focus should be making good music. That's all. No one gives a shit how you do it. And the people that do are fags.

i don't think it is fair to seperate production and music. Production is really just a new form of composition. You can have the same chords yet a different song.

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Originally posted by Nightshift lol @ people thinking EDM is musically complex. Productionally complex? maybe. But musically complex? not by a long shot. Its easy to believe that when mainstream music is hip hop, pop, and alternative rock though. There are a massive amount of music forms out there that I didn't even know about till I took World Music in college that are far more complex than EDM and once your hear them you soon realize just how simple EDM is musically.

Exactly! And, the problem here is that people are confusing complexity with "good" and simplicity with "bad" and see having their music as labeled simple as some sort of insult. That's not the case at all. In many ways, it's more difficult to keep it simple and interesting than it is to make it complex and keep it interesting. Some of the most recognizable melodies and most highly regarded tracks are utterly simple. That's one point that my composition and counterpoint professors pounded into my thick cranium for 4 years - don't make it more difficult, complex, or busy than it needs to be. This is especially applicable to dance music. People dancing at a club don't want complexity, they want consistency.

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Originally posted by RichieV i don't think it is fair to seperate production and music. Production is really just a new form of composition. You can have the same chords yet a different song.

Huh?

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Originally posted by cryophonik People dancing at a club don't want complexity, they want consistency.

that is aiming for the lowest denominator no ? Not saying it isn't true but if nobody takes some risks, we would be stuck with the same song being played over and over. I agree that you should not make things artificially complex but making things artificially simple is just as bad imo.

Last edited by RichieV on Nov-04-2009 at 19:14

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Originally posted by hexadecimal Huh?

if you have the same chords and melody yet the song is different , there must be something about the production that is changing the final musical composition.

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Originally posted by RichieV if you have the same chords and melody yet the song is different , there must be something about the production that is changing the final musical composition.

Oh, that totally clears things up. Thanks.

what specifically do you not get ? Nobody is making new chords or melodies. They are taking things done before and applying a new production esthetic. Production is the only thing making compositions new and worth listening to. This has been true for the last 30 years.

No don't worry, you made perfect sense of what your first post said with your last post. It's all clear as day now. You have to take the production out of the music if you want to make chords the same but different, which makes it unfair to say that production isn't the same as sound.