System, everyone is an agnostic..EVERYONE ON THE FUCKING PLANET. Calling yourself an agnostic says nothing at all.

Theism = belief
Lack of belief = atheism.

You lack belief, so you're an agnostic atheist. Deal with it..lol

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Originally posted by Capitalizt System, everyone is an agnostic..EVERYONE ON THE FUCKING PLANET. Calling yourself an agnostic says nothing at all. Theism = belief Lack of belief = atheism. You lack belief, so you're an agnostic atheist. Deal with it bitch..lol

There are no shortage of people who claim to know God exists or that science disproves it. Plenty of people claim to have felt the touch of God, had out-of-body experiences and other moments of divine intervention that give them a certainty of belief. So no, not everyone on the fucking planet is agnostic, you cretin.

There's also an important difference between stating "I don't think there's a God, but I can't say for sure" and "I have no idea if there's a God". But again: you're clearly incapable of thinking outside binary oppositions because you're a bit of a thicko. Deal with it, bitch.

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quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J The whole point of agnosticism is that ultimate answers about reality and spirituality are unknown or unknowable. Therefore, if you're agnostic it's impossible to believe in a specific sky fairy with any definable attributes, because that information is fucking unknown.

While I agree with you that agnosticism and atheism are not the same thing I do have to contend with your assertion that if one is agnostic it is impossible to believe in a specific god(s). It is entirely possible for one to both believe that god/ultimate reality is unknowable yet still believe that a specific god exists.

It seems to me the problem you and Capitalizt are entagled in has less to do with the definition of agnostic and more to do with the definition of atheist. He seems to believe atheism is a lack of belief whereas you seem to believe it is non-believe or perhaps an assertion that no deity exits. I'm not going to bother to wade into that one, as I've been down that road far too many times to be entertained by it anymore; however, that would seem to be the point of contention the two of you need to work out before your discussion goes anywhere.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J There are no shortage of people who claim to know God exists or that science disproves it. Plenty of people claim to have felt the touch of God, had out-of-body experiences and other moments of divine intervention that give them a certainty of belief. So no, not everyone on the fucking planet is agnostic, you cretin.

It's called delusion. Knowledge comes from evidence and reason. If you consider funny dreams and LSD trips means of acquiring valid knowledge, I feel sorry for you.

quote:

There's also an important difference between stating "I don't think there's a God, but I can't say for sure" and "I have no idea if there's a God". But again: you're clearly incapable of thinking outside binary oppositions because you're a bit of a thicko. Deal with it, bitch.

Blah blah blah..You still need to grow some balls and say that you don't believe in unicorns. Come on man..you can do it! Don't be afraid. Man up to your a-unicornism. Don't pussy out like you are doing with the sky fairy.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard He seems to believe atheism is a lack of belief whereas you seem to believe it is non-believe or perhaps an assertion that no deity exits.

Exactly. Atheism does not mean making the assertion that "THERE IS NO GOD." Some atheists might make that assertion, but in my experience they are a minority. A statement of that kind is unscientific and just as irrational as claims that God absolutely does exist. Most atheists will simply tell you they have not found sufficient reasons to believe in a God, hence they lack belief.

Last edited by Capitalizt on Jan-21-2010 at 15:59

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Originally posted by Capitalizt It's called delusion. Knowledge comes from evidence and reason. If you consider funny dreams and LSD trips means of acquiring valid knowledge, I feel sorry for you.

I don't consider them valid, but that's beside the fucking point. Fuck me, you're stupid. It's not about what you or I think of them, but what about the person who holds the belief thinks.

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Blah blah blah..You still need to grow some balls and say that you don't believe in unicorns. Come on man..you can do it! Don't be afraid. Man up to your a-unicornism. Don't pussy out like you are doing with the sky fairy.

I don't believe in unicorns. I don't believe in God, Allah, Ra or any other predefined deity. I've already said that. I've never been afraid of saying that, as I've made clear multiple fucking times only for you to completely fucking ignore. I've said it in this thread, I'll say it again. Being afraid, pussying out or running away is not the reason I call myself agnostic rather than atheist, you useless fucktard. Learn to read, learn to comprehend.

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> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

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quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard While I agree with you that agnosticism and atheism are not the same thing I do have to contend with your assertion that if one is agnostic it is impossible to believe in a specific god(s). It is entirely possible for one to both believe that god/ultimate reality is unknowable yet still believe that a specific god exists.

I would call that agnostic theism rather than pure agnosticism, because that line of thinking retains faith of some kind. If we're going to assume "atheism" simply means a lack of belief, pure agnosticism seems to become atheism by default. Which is redundant language as far as I'm concerned.

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> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I don't believe in unicorns. I don't believe in God, Allah, Ra or any other predefined deity. I've already said that. I've never been afraid of saying that, as I've made clear multiple fucking times

With this statement you are officially shedding the pussified agnostic label forever whether you realize it or not. Bravo.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt With this statement you are officially shedding the pussified agnostic label forever whether you realize it or not. Bravo.

By that logic I've never had it in this thread. Or ever. But thanks for utterly ignoring any amount of philosophical theory or positioning by making an entire term redundant under the false assumption that people who use it are being "pussies". I appreciate the input.

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> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I would call that agnostic theism rather than pure agnosticism, because that line of thinking retains faith of some kind.

I'm not sure I buy that one cannot be both, as agnosticism addresses knowledge; whereas, theism addresses belief. I suppose what I'm getting at is that acknowledgement that one does not know something does not preclude one from choosing to believe in same.

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If we're going to assume "atheism" simply means a lack of belief, pure agnosticism seems to become atheism by default. Which is redundant language as far as I'm concerned.

I agree with this, which is why I've always argued that atheism is the belief that there is no god. The early atheist movement would agree with this; however, when faced with the reality that asserting no god(s) exists is just as improvable as asserting that a god(s) exist contemporary atheists watered down their self-identification... essentially, most are agnostic but choose to retain the atheist moniker so that they can continue to mock the belief in the divine (which is more often then not a proxy battle for real and justifiable objections to specific religious bodies).

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quote:

Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard I'm not sure I buy that one cannot be both, as agnosticism addresses knowledge; whereas, theism addresses belief. I suppose what I'm getting at is that acknowledgement that one does not know something does not preclude one from choosing to believe in same.

It depends whether you consider "genre hybrids" to be seperate entities or an overlap in some theological venn diagram. You can either treat agnostic theism as a kind of agnosticism, or as something seperate. I treat it as seperate because one involves faith, the other doesn't.

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essentially, most are agnostic but choose to retain the atheist moniker so that they can continue to mock the belief in the divine (which is more often then not a proxy battle for real and justifiable objections to specific religious bodies).

I'd agree - for me, "atheism" is defined as much as anything by the position the person adopts in an argument about religion. Capitalizt's "you're either with us or against us" reductive approach just strengthens that implication that it's a conflict.

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> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I'd agree - for me, "atheism" is defined as much as anything by the position the person adopts in an argument about religion. Capitalizt's "you're either with us or against us" reductive approach just strengthens that implication that it's a conflict.

No, I don't think atheist indicates conflict. It isn't against anything. To be against the proposition of a God would mean to be anti-theist. Christopher Hitchens has adopted this term for himself and it seems to fit the "There is no God" crowd better than atheist.

theist - belief
atheist - lacking belief
antitheist - opposing/opposite belief

It's similar to moral, amoral, and immoral. The latter two share no similarity with the first word, but they still have very different meanings from each other.