quote:

Originally posted by Sushipunk He just had a passion. No one person, or one locker, could stand in his way. He'll be missed.

Well, in the end, one locker did stand in his way. The rapid advances in locker technology (carbon fiber and such) were too much for his old heart. He fell over dead at the NALSC(North American Locker Smashing Convention) of a sudden cardiac arrest. At least he died the way he lived...smashing lockers.

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It looks like you ain't got no pants on there buddy!

Thanks for all the advice guys.

I think what im going to do is attend the meeting the invite me to, hear what they have to say possibly defend my position. Then regardless of the outcome explain in writing that the incident has made it impossible for me to continue employment with them. I will try to phrase it so it doesnt offend and I get a reference.

Thanks again fellas

******** dude... Posting pics of yourself posing in underwear? fail

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Processing a highly structured and complex pattern of sensory input as a unified percept of "music" is probably one of the most elaborate features of the human brain.....understanding how music is perceived and how it may elicit intense sensations is far from being understood.

quote:

Originally posted by Sonic_c Thanks for all the advice guys. I think what im going to do is attend the meeting the invite me to, hear what they have to say possibly defend my position. Then regardless of the outcome explain in writing that the incident has made it impossible for me to continue employment with them. I will try to phrase it so it doesnt offend and I get a reference. Thanks again fellas ******** dude... Posting pics of yourself posing in underwear? fail

maybe you should wait to decide what to do until after your meeting.

quote:

Originally posted by butterfly maybe you should wait to decide what to do until after your meeting.

yeah but if your employer accused you of stealing would you be ok going back? knowing that they would always mistrust you or whatever?

I cant work like that.

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Processing a highly structured and complex pattern of sensory input as a unified percept of "music" is probably one of the most elaborate features of the human brain.....understanding how music is perceived and how it may elicit intense sensations is far from being understood.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN what complete bollocks!

So, in a small to medium business situation, the financial risk that your employer has undertaken to open their own business, assume liability for the (often poor) actions of their workers, as well as often work twice as hard as their employees means nothing to you? Especially considering that employees have no responsibility or liability and can jump in and out of jobs at will, leaving their employer high and dry?

Don't get me wrong, you're doing your employer a favour by working for them too, but don't ever forget that they're providing everything you have in your life. However, I wouldn't expect a laze-about entitlist like you to understand the dynamics of such a relationship.

(yes, I just invented the word 'entitlist')

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quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated So, in a small to medium business situation, the financial risk that your employer has undertaken to open their own business, assume liability for the (often poor) actions of their workers, as well as often work twice as hard as their employees means nothing to you? Especially considering that employees have no responsibility or liability and can jump in and out of jobs at will, leaving their employer high and dry? Don't get me wrong, you're doing your employer a favour by working for them too, but don't ever forget that they're providing everything you have in your life. However, I wouldn't expect a laze-about entitlist like you to understand the dynamics of such a relationship. (yes, I just invented the word 'entitlist')

The arrangement is a mutually beneficial one and neither is doing anything altruistic for the other.

Your emphasis here is completely one-sided and ignores the jobs where employees most certainly have responsibility and liability (such as the service of alcohol which this thread is about!) and the fact that employees are the first to suffer at the hands of a market downturn, plus its always employees that get shafted when a business goes to the wall (look at the inifinite examples of employee entitlements when businesses collapse). None of that matters though, I certainly wouldn’t put undue emphasis on those contexts, because im not a blind ideologue. It’s a symbiotic relationship, and your “business is doing you a favour” is just bollocks.

And fuck you and your “entitlism”. I don’t feel entitled to shit. I just don’t apply myopic biases to my understandings of the labour market.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN The arrangement is a mutually beneficial one and neither is doing anything altruistic for the other.

I agree, neither half of the relationship is altruistic. In many cases it's the complete opposite. However, a small or medium employer (i.e. family or partnership-size business) takes on far more risk than their employees do.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Your emphasis here is completely one-sided and ignores the jobs where employees most certainly have responsibility and liability (such as the service of alcohol which this thread is about!)

Employers are subject to larger penalties in the case of their employees serving alcohol to intoxicated patrons. I was reminded of this many times during my tenure as a bar tender.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN and the fact that employees are the first to suffer at the hands of a market downturn,

1. In this case, the employers suffer too.

2. Generally, employees have taken less risk to attain their position than their employer, so it's only fair that the employee should be the first to go. Hypothetically, if you'd spent $200,000 of your own money and 3 years of your time building up a business, would you be happy to go under while your employees, who have invested nothing but their work time, are buoyed with your own money? Why would you keep employing them at your own loss?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN plus its always employees that get shafted when a business goes to the wall

So when a business goes to the wall the employer doesn't suffer? Remember that I'm talking specifically about a small business where a core group of individuals have invested money to start it. Even if it was a tenth-generation inheritance from their parents, that business and the privileges of it are still their entitlement, just as any money your parents bequeathed to you would rightly be yours.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN And fuck you and your “entitlism”. I don’t feel entitled to shit. I just don’t apply myopic biases to my understandings of the labour market.

You were on welfare for a year without reasonable cause. I think that fairly qualifies you as:

a) Someone with an entitlement complex.
b) Someone who has no problem taking from others without return, even knowing it's wrong.

Either way, the result is the same.

I also think it's incorrect to call my opinion myopic. Highly biased, perhaps.

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quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated I agree, neither half of the relationship is altruistic. In many cases it's the complete opposite. However, a small or medium employer (i.e. family or partnership-size business) takes on far more risk than their employees do.

So what? They make most of the profits too. more risk, more money. That’s the point.

quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated Employers are subject to larger penalties in the case of their employees serving alcohol to intoxicated patrons. I was reminded of this many times during my tenure as a bar tender.

For sure, but that’s not what you said initially

quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated In this case, the employers suffer too.

Obviously, but they don’t lose their job, their house and their health insurance.

quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated Generally, employees have taken less risk to attain their position than their employer, so it's only fair that the employee should be the first to go. Hypothetically, if you'd spent $200,000 of your own money and 3 years of your time building up a business, would you be happy to go under while your employees, who have invested nothing but their work time, are buoyed with your own money? Why would you keep employing them at your own loss?

You seem to be attempting to goad me into an argument when I agree with you. I was merely stating the facts. I didn’t say I disagreed with them

quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated So when a business goes to the wall the employer doesn't suffer? Remember that I'm talking specifically about a small business where a core group of individuals have invested money to start it. Even if it was a tenth-generation inheritance from their parents, that business and the privileges of it are still their entitlement, just as any money your parents bequeathed to you would rightly be yours.

I was thinking more of say, ansett airlines. Employees were the last on a very long list of creditors.

quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated You were on welfare for a year without reasonable cause.

Man it was awesome! and define “reasonable cause”. I applied for jobs.

quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated I think that fairly qualifies you as: Someone with an entitlement complex.

Oh fuck off. You would have to prove that I felt “entitled”. I didn’t. I did it because I could. Completely different.

quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated b) Someone who has no problem taking from others without return, even knowing it's wrong.

lol. why should I have had a problem? People fuck other people over every day of the week. many of those people are business owners. Do they feel bad about ripping off employees or colluding or inflating prices or polluting or lying on their taxes or general unscrupulous behaviour? Nope. It’s a dog eat dog world out there and everyone is out for themselves. Indeed, that IS the basis of our economic system after all.

Who do you think has ripped off the tax payer more- me on my measly $200 a week welfare or the late mr packer and his game of tax dodgeball?

quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated Either way, the result is the same. I also think it's incorrect to call my opinion myopic. Highly biased, perhaps.

Your original statement re “favours” is myopic because you cant see past the end of your family’s nose

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN So what? They make most of the profits too. more risk, more money. That’s the point.

Exactly, they've taken more risks, to get where they are, so they deserve a smaller fall.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Obviously, but they don’t lose their job, their house and their health insurance.

Err...what? An employee loses their job. Granted, if they are unable to find new work, that may lead to losing other, more important things. However, if a business hits the wall, the employer(s) will lose the business premises and any other capital they have invested. Keep in mind I'm referring exclusively to small to medium businesses.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN I was thinking more of say, ansett airlines. Employees were the last on a very long list of creditors.

We're not discussing Ansett Airlines. As I unequivocally stated, I'm referring to small and medium business, i.e less than 50 employees.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Oh fuck off. You would have to prove that I felt “entitled”. I didn’t. I did it because I could. Completely different.

So if my neighbour leaves his car unlocked and I take it "because I could", that's not just as bad as taking it because you think it should be yours? I'd argue that it's worse.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol. why should I have had a problem? People fuck other people over every day of the week. many of those people are business owners. Do they feel bad about ripping off employees or colluding or inflating prices or polluting or lying on their taxes or general unscrupulous behaviour? Nope. It’s a dog eat dog world out there and everyone is out for themselves. Indeed, that IS the basis of our economic system after all.

Yes, people are out for themselves. I know I am. However, just because everyone else is doing the wrong thing doesn't mean you should.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Who do you think has ripped off the tax payer more- me on my measly $200 a week welfare or the late mr packer and his game of tax dodgeball?

Kerry Packer was a fat cunt in every sense of the expression. Again, I'm talking about small companies (i.e. the OP's bar), not multi-national conglomerates.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Your original statement re “favours” is myopic because you cant see past the end of your family’s nose

Not really. I've held part time and full-time jobs in journalism, shopfitting/building, catering, bar-tending, teaching, model-making ( ), labouring, cooking and waiting. I've experienced the employee-employer relationship from both sides pretty thoroughly, and as I've stated to you on a number of occasions, I'm under no illusion that every employer is a altruistic do-gooder who wants to give love and happiness to everyone; many are downright malicious and screw their employees at every possible opportunity.

To clarify; all the points I've made in this thread have been stated on the basis that the OP's employer has done him no wrong in the past. Sure, if your employer has consistently been late with your pay, abused you, degraded you, bullied you, or otherwise done something unacceptable for someone in their position, take them to the fucking cleaners. However, if your employer has done their best to make your experience pleasant and generally done a good job, why give them trouble when they've gone to so much effort not to give you any? That's all I'm saying: eye for an eye. If the employer ends an otherwise happy relationship by firing you, walk away. Don't stab them for doing something:

a) They couldn't avoid. (i.e. economic downturn)
b) You probably deserved. (i.e. you suck at your job)
c) Having a difference of opinion to you or plain not liking you.
d) Misunderstanding a situation. (i.e. thinking you're stealing when you're not)

If they want to fire you, they'll do it eventually. No point fighting it. Just take your pay, move on and find another job.

p.s. to cover my arse, there are of course cases where all of the above is bullshit. For example, if someone worked at the same job for fifty years and then was fired for no reason, they'd be unemployable. Going after the employer for money would probably be reasonable in that case. However, when talking about transient work like bar tending, I think my argument is pretty sound.

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Last edited by Domesticated on Feb-24-2010 at 01:42

so we agree then, mostly

quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated So if my neighbour leaves his car unlocked and I take it "because I could", that's not just as bad as taking it because you think it should be yours? I'd argue that it's worse.

You can’t equate me legally receiving unemployment benefits with the illegal theft of a motor vehicle. I applied for jobs and upheld my half of the unemployment relationship. Sure, I could’ve tried harder but where’s the fun in that?

Just want to mention this is a huge chain superclub in fact i think one of the worlds biggest club brands.

So its not a small business nor is it the managers money being ricked on the business i think they are just being tight.

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quote:

Originally posted by Sonic_c Just want to mention this is a huge chain superclub in fact i think one of the worlds biggest club brands.

I still feel bad for your overlords.