quote:

Originally posted by Comrade Stalin What do you expect in war? That only enemy combatants get killed?

I expect, that as a self-proclaimed civilized nation, you do everything in your power to avoid killing innocent people when you invade another country.
Sometimes it can not be avoided. Information may be incorrect, weapons may fail, people can assess wrong - but we goddamn have a responsibility to do as much as we possibly can, even if it means exposing ourselves to a slightly greater risk.

If you want to compare with cars, i say, that car accidents can always occur, but we must nevertheless do all we possibly can to make cars safe, while you say since cars still invariably sometimes have mistakes, we might as well just drop all ethical considerations and make them highly unsafe and dangerous.

Last edited by Znack on Jan-05-2011 at 10:57

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Originally posted by Znack I expect, that as a self-proclaimed civilized nation, you do everything in once power to avoid killing innocent people when you invade another country.

One of the perversities of war that I find most amusing is that the harder you try to avoid killing innocent people, the more innocent people you end up killing.

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Originally posted by Znack I expect, that as a self-proclaimed civilized nation, you do everything in your power to avoid killing innocent people when you invade another country. Sometimes it can not be avoided. Information may be incorrect, weapons may fail, people can assess wrong - but we goddamn have a responsibility to do as much as we possibly can, even if it means exposing ourselves to a slightly greater risk. If you want to compare with cars, i say, that car accidents can always occur, but we must nevertheless do all we possibly can to make cars safe, while you say since cars still invariably sometimes have mistakes, we might as well just drop all ethical considerations and make them highly unsafe and dangerous.

Do you even know the process that goes into this sort of shit?

Stuff usually goes through at least a dozen people before they are allowed to open fire. There are often military lawyers involved in this process as well.

It is not some wild cowboy type antics with loan gunship crews out there blasting whatever the fuck they see.

You seriously need to wake the fuck up, because the amount of deaths ALL AROUND in Iraq and Afghanistan pales in comparison to wars that were not even nearly as long and were fought not even 100 years ago.

How many civilians died in WWII? Millions and millions! Quit being such a pansy fuck and gain some apathy, you'll be a much happier person.

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Originally posted by Znack I expect, that as a self-proclaimed civilized nation, you do everything in your power to avoid killing innocent people when you invade another country. Sometimes it can not be avoided. Information may be incorrect, weapons may fail, people can assess wrong

you forgot Muslim terrorists hiding behind women and children

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So if those kids survived, thats two more people growing up to hate the west, along with the families of those who died...
Seen as thousand of civilians have been killed and thousands more injured, I guess you've made a rod for your own back?

TBH Afghanistan was a stupid idea anyway, nobody has invaded and won in the past have they?

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Originally posted by Saka TBH Afghanistan was a stupid idea anyway, nobody has invaded and won in the past have they?

I don't know where that myth got started, but it couldn't be much further from the truth. Plenty of outside powers successfully invaded and went on to control modern-day Afghanistan for various lengths of time; indeed, the area has been occupied by one foreign power or another for the better part of the last two millenia.

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Originally posted by Znack I expect, that as a self-proclaimed civilized nation, you do everything in your power to avoid killing innocent people when you invade another country. Sometimes it can not be avoided. Information may be incorrect, weapons may fail, people can assess wrong - but we goddamn have a responsibility to do as much as we possibly can, even if it means exposing ourselves to a slightly greater risk.

not taking any sides here, but isn't this one of those very circumstances where

quote:

Originally posted by Znack Sometimes it can not be avoided. Information may be incorrect ... people can assess wrong

Maybe they are doing everything they can to try to avoid killing innocent people, but as you pointed out, mistakes happen.

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Do you even know the process that goes into this sort of shit?

I do not see the relevance. Is murder of an innocent more acceptable if the decision has taken a long time, or made by many people?

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How many civilians died in WWII? Millions and millions!

Is your argument then, because once something worse happened, then this is okay?

This is kindergarten logic. "I punched little Peter, but Ben from third grade did it more than me. "

Last edited by Znack on Jan-05-2011 at 13:58

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Originally posted by Trance Nutter not taking any sides here, but isn't this one of those very circumstances where Maybe they are doing everything they can to try to avoid killing innocent people, but as you pointed out, mistakes happen.

They're out of danger and have full view of those, they are shooting at. It is absurd to say that it was a mistake that could not be avoided. They know perfectly well what they're doing, and although they were not aware that they where non-combatants they shot at. It would not be a sufficient excuse.
An accident in war is (not) to shoot first and ask questions afterwards.

quote:

Originally posted by Znack I expect, that as a self-proclaimed civilized nation, you do everything in your power to avoid killing innocent people when you invade another country. Sometimes it can not be avoided. Information may be incorrect, weapons may fail, people can assess wrong - but we goddamn have a responsibility to do as much as we possibly can, even if it means exposing ourselves to a slightly greater risk. If you want to compare with cars, i say, that car accidents can always occur, but we must nevertheless do all we possibly can to make cars safe, while you say since cars still invariably sometimes have mistakes, we might as well just drop all ethical considerations and make them highly unsafe and dangerous.

Of course a country like the USA takes on the effort to avoid innocent deaths but guess what? War is war and no matter how hard you try, innocent people will die, in fact, in almost every war, far more innocent people die than actual combatants, even if measures are taken to try to limit innocent deaths. I find outrage at events that happen in war, frankly, retarded. "Those evil soldiers, how could they have executed that poor insurgent! How could those helicopter pilots killed those innocent people!?" Those soldiers and helicopter pilots are just doing their job. They didn't ask to be sent over there. If you have any anger, direct it at the politicians who sent those pilots to a foreign land, to do what they do best, which is to kill.

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Originally posted by Arbiter That's just procrastinating. Everybody dies, it's just a matter of when and how.

-_- You get the point...

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Originally posted by Comrade Stalin War is war and no matter how hard you try, innocent people will die

Yes, mistakes do occur. But it is not a reason not to do the best you can, to prevent them from happening.

The fact that mistakes can happen does not mean we can shoot right and left, because there is someone who dies somewhere anyway. It's a crazy attitude and would not stand in any court.

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I find outrage at events that happen in war, frankly, retarded.

Really? It is "retarded" to be angry about Hitler's mass killings of Jews? It was war, so dont bother with some innocent victims?

If this is your argument, then I think most people will find your thinking deeply frightening. If this is not your argument, you have not thought it through properly.

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Those soldiers and helicopter pilots are just doing their job

So is an assassin. So is a bank robber. To call an act a job is not an excuse for crimes. Again a very ill-considered argument.

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If you have any anger, direct it at the politicians who sent those pilots to a foreign land, to do what they do best, which is to kill.

Who says I don`t? The soldiers acted incorrectly, but if they have followed the rules, and apparently they have. Then it is certainly the makers of those rules who have the greatest responsibility.

Last edited by Znack on Jan-05-2011 at 21:06