It's illegal in the states to gamble online I believe. But the online poker world was massive before they banned it (some people often making their living from online poker alone), so it obviously wasn't just going to go away. Hence, bitcoin.

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Originally posted by OrangestO This isn't about physics, this is about waves.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i think that's overly simplistic. a dollar is guaranteed by a government; all debts and goods/services are available to be paid in that unit of currency. when bad things happen to a dollar, there are mechanisms and central authorities to protect it.

Nope. When bad things happen to the dollar i.e it devalues - that would make paying for those debts, goods and services cheaper and easier. Therefore the government has less reason to protect it.

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Originally posted by Meat187 You're mixing up quite a lot of things there. First, these mechanisms and central authorities can equally fuck things up. See the current Euro crises. Of course a 13 word statement is simplified, but we've seen enough currencies going down in history to know that it's very true.

The current euro crisis is due, in part, to it acting like the gold standard, where differing monetary policies cannot be taken due to the euro central bank’s “standard”. One in all in, as it were. But I agree, central authorities can fuck things up, but the point is they attempt to avoid it. a market determined solely by user use does not have such protections and their history of failure is long and glorious (19th C banking panics in the US being prime examples).

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Originally posted by Meat187 Second, Bitcoin is a replacement for hard cash, not banks or credit cards, so comparisons with those make no sense.

How can it be a replacement for hard cash? It can’t buy anything and it only becomes worth something when it is exchanged for this “hard cash”.

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Originally posted by Meat187 Theoretically, institutions like that could exist for Bitcoin. You're right about its current state and capabilities. What I'm saying that it can either way from now, either becoming completely worthless or establishing itself more (as I said, imagine Amazon starts accepting it).

But why would someone like amazon start accepting them? there is literally no advantage to a legit business. The currency isn’t stable, it is not insured, there isn’t nearly enough market to justify the hassles, it offers literally nothing that current payment options cannot.

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Originally posted by Taipan Nope. When bad things happen to the dollar i.e it devalues - that would make paying for those debts, goods and services cheaper and easier. Therefore the government has less reason to protect it.

Incorrect. Firstly, central banks around the world routinely step in to buy their currency in order to maintain a certain value and prevent price instability. Bitcoin for instance dropped ~90% in a matter of weeks. No central bank would find this tolerable. Secondly, many of those goods and/or services become more expensive, if they are associated some way with foreign currencies (ie that circuit board or food stuff is imported). You are right though, debts held in that currency become relatively less expensive, but that primarily affects the bond holder, not the borrower. The borrower is only really advantaged when the devaluation is achieved by printing more money (ie they have more dollars to use to pay the debt). This is called “inflating out of debt”.

Of course there are very real benefits to a cheaper country (cheaper exports for one) but this doesn’t hold for something like bitcoin which is far more a speculative investment than a real currency. Since nobody is exporting in bitcoins, it doesn’t benefit from being devalued.

I think too many bitcoin people read Cryptonomicon and thought it was some sort of guide.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Incorrect. Firstly, central banks around the world routinely step in to buy their currency in order to maintain a certain value and prevent price instability. Bitcoin for instance dropped ~90% in a matter of weeks. No central bank would find this tolerable.

This might seem like a stupid question but I sincerely want to know: What motive do banks have to maintain the value of their currency.

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Originally posted by Taipan This might seem like a stupid question but I sincerely want to know: What motive do banks have to maintain the value of their currency.

If we’re talking about central banks, then the motivation is to support a stable economy, stable & predictable prices. Ie to provide a stable basis upon which the economy can function.

If we’re talking about commercial banks, then their interest in maintaining the value of a currency is that the value of their loan assets is undermined by inflation. Ie a bank makes a profit by charging interest at, say 5%. If inflation is at 3% then they’re only making a real 2% profit. Basically inflation or devaluation makes debts cheaper, at the expense of the lender. Of course it must be noted that commercial banks are not related to monetary policy in this context.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN

I don't really get what you're trying to say here, besides making simplistic and somewhat contradictory statements like "It's not worth anything, you can only exchange them for money" and pointless comparisons with features and institutions Bitcoin was never intended to have.

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Then stop coloring and visit Meat187's mix archive!

you're not exactly giving me much to go on, meat. unless you refer to something specifically i am unable to respond properly. anyway...

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Originally posted by Meat187 I don't really get what you're trying to say here, besides making simplistic and somewhat contradictory statements like "It's not worth anything, you can only exchange them for money"

it's "not worth anything" as a currency because it can't buy anything. im sure you'll agree that's a fundamental aspect of any currency. sure, some idiot online might be willing to pay you USD in exchange for your bitcoins, so what? why didn't you just keep the USD you spent on bitcoins in the first place? yes, you can speculate if that's your thing, but there are literally bajillions of better risks than bitcoin (and you're unlikely to be robbed in the night by hackers while doing so).

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Originally posted by Meat187 and pointless comparisons with features and institutions Bitcoin was never intended to have.

you specifically asked me why i consider bitcoin to be worthless as an alternative currency and i think i provided many reasonable points. if you have a problem with them then feel free to elaborate, but the point is, these "features" and "institutions" are what make currencies work, and the lackthereof is why bitcoin will not.

you specifically mentioned amazon, and i directly asked you what they would have to gain. feel free to answer on point some time this discussion.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN you specifically mentioned amazon, and i directly asked you what they would have to gain.

Today: none. Someday: meeting the demand from many customers to pay in that currency.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN you're not exactly giving me much to go on, meat. unless you refer to something specifically i am unable to respond properly.

I'm trying to find out why to respond, even though most points have been agreed upon and others are opinion and speculations about the future. I guess it's either trying to pretend your opinion is a fact or plainly trying to have the last word.

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Then stop coloring and visit Meat187's mix archive!

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Originally posted by Meat187 Today: none. Someday: meeting the demand from many customers to pay in that currency.

how will there be "many" customers when the currency has an absolute limit in terms of units? it literally can't grow beyond a certain size. what then? either you're stuck at the limit or you change the code to allow for more bitcoins (i hope i don't have to explain the hilarity of this notion to you).

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Originally posted by Meat187 I'm trying to find out why to respond, even though most points have been agreed upon and others are opinion and speculations about the future.

see all you've done is quote my name and provided a blurb of your own, i honestly don't know what you agree or disagree with. yeah yeah, i know you dont do the "internet argument" thing and that's fine but i aint no mind reader either.

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Originally posted by Meat187 I guess it's either trying to pretend your opinion is a fact or plainly trying to have the last word.

i (obviously) think my opinion is more or less accurate and ive provided several examples and explanations and a reasonable source to support that opinion. if you ever bothered to provide an alternative position i might at least hear something new re bitcoins or be forced to reconsider my loathing. but you give me nothing, meat.

don't care about having the last word (he says having the last word). i just rate your opinion to a certain degree and would like to be shown your dizzying intellect just once. or, i would like to stomp you into the dirt for being caught up with nonsense when you should really know better.

either is good.

sushi likes the balls.

Lol, fuck off.

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