Hi

I don't post often, being more a lurker than something else, but I can't prevent myself from posting in this thread.

If you're doing music just for fun, then cool follow what has been posted here and it will help you. HOWEVER, if you intend to distribute your music either on the net, on CD or on vinyl on a somewhat large scale, and you can invest in a real mastering session, then go for it.

Mastering is an art, and not everyone can do that job, seriously. Mastering experts have golden ears and always have amazed me how precise they can be. Right off listening your mix they can just say "it lacks of 0.2 dB in the 10 KHz range"...

Also, a real mastering studio doesn't use 99$ software. The mastering studio I always go to is equipped with Weiss digital equipment that is worth hundred of thousands dollars, in rooms that has been carefully built to be sure to have a totally dead sound.

Some studios offers free, short sessions to demonstrate the usefulness of a mastering session. For people in the Toronto area, I know the Lacquer Channel Mastering do that...

What bugs me with electronic musicians is that they think they can do everything themselves, just because they use a computer... :/ It's not because you buy a box of plasters you are a doctor, and it's not because you purchase a chef's knife that you are a professional cook... why could you do critical mastering just by buying cheap software and consider you a pro? (Again, I'm repeating here... I'm talking if you plan on releasing the music on a somewhat large scale.. if you do it as a hobby, this does not apply).

Buying the software DON'T give you the listening environment to do the mastering, and DON'T give you the skills for it.

I'm a professional sound engineer, and I don't have the experience or the knowledge myself to do mastering sessions! Most musicians understands that, so why the electronic musicians wouldn't?

My two cents,



Slipstream

___________________
"Oh, you mean those pianos and violins that were designed by Mother Nature and grew on a tree or in a garden - without design by man and construction by man? (As opposed to synthesizers that were designed and built with human hands made with components from the planet Earth, but deemed unnatural because electricity - which does occur naturally - is required for their operation and use). Is that what you mean by "natural" instruments?" --Zon Vern Pyles

quote:

Originally posted by Slipstream Hi I don't post often, being more a lurker than something else, but I can't prevent myself from posting in this thread. If you're doing music just for fun, then cool follow what has been posted here and it will help you. HOWEVER, if you intend to distribute your music either on the net, on CD or on vinyl on a somewhat large scale, and you can invest in a real mastering session, then go for it. Mastering is an art, and not everyone can do that job, seriously. Mastering experts have golden ears and always have amazed me how precise they can be. Right off listening your mix they can just say "it lacks of 0.2 dB in the 10 KHz range"... Also, a real mastering studio doesn't use 99$ software. The mastering studio I always go to is equipped with Weiss digital equipment that is worth hundred of thousands dollars, in rooms that has been carefully built to be sure to have a totally dead sound. Some studios offers free, short sessions to demonstrate the usefulness of a mastering session. For people in the Toronto area, I know the Lacquer Channel Mastering do that... What bugs me with electronic musicians is that they think they can do everything themselves, just because they use a computer... :/ It's not because you buy a box of plasters you are a doctor, and it's not because you purchase a chef's knife that you are a professional cook... why could you do critical mastering just by buying cheap software and consider you a pro? (Again, I'm repeating here... I'm talking if you plan on releasing the music on a somewhat large scale.. if you do it as a hobby, this does not apply). Buying the software DON'T give you the listening environment to do the mastering, and DON'T give you the skills for it. I'm a professional sound engineer, and I don't have the experience or the knowledge myself to do mastering sessions! Most musicians understands that, so why the electronic musicians wouldn't? My two cents, Slipstream

well i think i can do it myself with lots of practice and trying, u know, sound engineers also been practicing until it sounded good, so i know that if ill practice ill reach good levels of mastering... so its plain stupid what ur saying cos what that made me a producer can and will make me a sound engineer (lots of practice and work)... and those "golden ears" are accuired by practice, its like i can tell from experience what synth people used to make a sound, or when im djing i can tell which of the tunes will cause a train if not adjusted right... so imo i think mastering is a part of my production and my art, and i wouldnt really like someone else to be doing that for me as they can destroy the whole meaning of the track...

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quote:

I'm a professional sound engineer, and I don't have the experience or the knowledge myself to do mastering sessions! Most musicians understands that, so why the electronic musicians wouldn't?

Simple. You ever heard of Nick Bracegirdle, AKA Chicane. He's quite successfull I assure you if you don't know about him. He doesn't master his tracks. "Don't Give Up", one of the greatest trance tracks of all time was barely mastered at all, and the part that was mastered was done by Nick.

But.

I do appreciate and understand what you're saying. Sure, Ray Charles or Whitney Houston shouldn't master their own songs, they would probably be shiite if they did. But with electronic musicians it is different. I know plenty of successful producers that have mastered their own tracks and "made them sound better". At the same time, sure, if they sent it to a mastering house it would almost always sound better (more bottom end or more sparkling highs)but many seem to get away with it.

Yes, mastering isn't something you just read about and apply, but with practice everyone can at least make their music a little better by at least trying it. True, sometimes it soils the track, but many times it helps.

___________________
Business is very food.

quote:

Originally posted by Vortex_SA well i think i can do it myself with lots of practice and trying, u know, sound engineers also been practicing until it sounded good, so i know that if ill practice ill reach good levels of mastering... so its plain stupid what ur saying cos what that made me a producer can and will make me a sound engineer (lots of practice and work)... and those "golden ears" are accuired by practice, its like i can tell from experience what synth people used to make a sound, or when im djing i can tell which of the tunes will cause a train if not adjusted right... so imo i think mastering is a part of my production and my art, and i wouldnt really like someone else to be doing that for me as they can destroy the whole meaning of the track...

But practicing won't give you the environment needed to do a mastering, and a 99$ software won't do the trick compared to a full-blown Weiss digital setup.

What you and others are doing, I would say that is part of your final mixing.

What I mean by golden ears is that they also have a perfect audition, or they know where they are lacking and can compensate for it naturally. What may sounds right to you may not sound right to everyone else, because you may lack of 5 dB on in the 5K range. Have you took an audition test recently? That would be certainly important if you go out in parties or in clubs without protection.

And yes you can make a mix that will sound very fine, but it will never come as nice as if it was professionally mastered.

A purpose of the mastering, perhaps less known, when you're doing a complete album, is to ensure that everything will be glued together and you won't have tracks that will be too loud or too soft compared to other tracks. There's also a mastering required when you're releasing a track on vinyl, some things are NOT allowed in a song when cutting a vinyl. For example, you can't pan the lower-end when you're cutting a vinyl. It must be centered. Else the needle will skip when playing the record.

quote:

Originally posted by Etherium Simple. You ever heard of Nick Bracegirdle, AKA Chicane. He's quite successfull I assure you if you don't know about him. He doesn't master his tracks. "Don't Give Up", one of the greatest trance tracks of all time was barely mastered at all, and the part that was mastered was done by Nick. But. I do appreciate and understand what you're saying. Sure, Ray Charles or Whitney Houston shouldn't master their own songs, they would probably be shiite if they did. But with electronic musicians it is different. I know plenty of successful producers that have mastered their own tracks and "made them sound better". At the same time, sure, if they sent it to a mastering house it would almost always sound better (more bottom end or more sparkling highs)but many seem to get away with it. Yes, mastering isn't something you just read about and apply, but with practice everyone can at least make their music a little better by at least trying it. True, sometimes it soils the track, but many times it helps.

Yes I do know Chicane, I'm too a trance addict I would bet 100$ that his tracks has been mastered before being cutted to vinyl.

Again, what most people do I would call that the final mixing and/or perhaps a pre-mastering. But I'll never agree on the fact that a track been "mastered" on 99$ software, in a home studio, with cheap monitors and an acoustic environment that hasn't been studied.


...Did you know that the best acoustician in the world charge $1,000,000 to study a space and design a studio? And some studios paid him. That is surely not because a bedroom studio can replace a well engineered room.


For people still not believing me, I assure you... call for a test session. As I said for people in Toronto I know Lacquer Channel Mastering do that, and I'm pretty sure others can do that as well. And mastering is not that much expensive, for studios working 24 hours, the nights are cheap... you can deal something like 60-75$/hours during off-peak / dead periods, and it takes approximately 1 hour per track.

For people in Montreal, I really recommend SNB Mastering in Ville-St-Laurent.




Slipstream

___________________
"Oh, you mean those pianos and violins that were designed by Mother Nature and grew on a tree or in a garden - without design by man and construction by man? (As opposed to synthesizers that were designed and built with human hands made with components from the planet Earth, but deemed unnatural because electricity - which does occur naturally - is required for their operation and use). Is that what you mean by "natural" instruments?" --Zon Vern Pyles

I've talked to top studio engineers. They say mastering is very difficult for the average producer to get their brain around, but that the average person can improve his or her mix with "bedroom/$99 mastering" with enough time and effort (of course not to the extent that a professional could).

The fact remains, some electronica songs aren't professionaly mastered and they sound great to me and to many others.

There is no doubt that none of us here could do as good of a job as a professional could, but we can improve our tracks at least to a small extent.

But, if any of us were going to release on a large scale, we would get it professionally mastered.

___________________
Business is very food.

this is how I see it..

I'm going to master my own stuff by myself until i get a record deal (if i ever get one, who knows)...

geting it mastered professionally costs money, hey I'm 18 this year and haven't even finished school, there's no way I can afford a proffesional mastering for my tracks, and also what's the point of geting it pro mastered just to send it to a recordcompany as a demo, the chance is very little that they will even listen to it anyway so...

and also, if i DO get a record deal the rec. company will probably master it for me (they usually do this for you)

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quote:

Originally posted by davedresden i suggest getting the gabriel & dresden prog-a-minute. in 3 easy steps you too could change the face of dance music. batteries not included. - dave

quote:

Originally posted by Slipstream But practicing won't give you the environment needed to do a mastering, and a 99$ software won't do the trick compared to a full-blown Weiss digital setup. What you and others are doing, I would say that is part of your final mixing. What I mean by golden ears is that they also have a perfect audition, or they know where they are lacking and can compensate for it naturally. What may sounds right to you may not sound right to everyone else, because you may lack of 5 dB on in the 5K range. Have you took an audition test recently? That would be certainly important if you go out in parties or in clubs without protection. And yes you can make a mix that will sound very fine, but it will never come as nice as if it was professionally mastered. A purpose of the mastering, perhaps less known, when you're doing a complete album, is to ensure that everything will be glued together and you won't have tracks that will be too loud or too soft compared to other tracks. There's also a mastering required when you're releasing a track on vinyl, some things are NOT allowed in a song when cutting a vinyl. For example, you can't pan the lower-end when you're cutting a vinyl. It must be centered. Else the needle will skip when playing the record. Yes I do know Chicane, I'm too a trance addict I would bet 100$ that his tracks has been mastered before being cutted to vinyl. Again, what most people do I would call that the final mixing and/or perhaps a pre-mastering. But I'll never agree on the fact that a track been "mastered" on 99$ software, in a home studio, with cheap monitors and an acoustic environment that hasn't been studied. ...Did you know that the best acoustician in the world charge $1,000,000 to study a space and design a studio? And some studios paid him. That is surely not because a bedroom studio can replace a well engineered room. For people still not believing me, I assure you... call for a test session. As I said for people in Toronto I know Lacquer Channel Mastering do that, and I'm pretty sure others can do that as well. And mastering is not that much expensive, for studios working 24 hours, the nights are cheap... you can deal something like 60-75$/hours during off-peak / dead periods, and it takes approximately 1 hour per track. For people in Montreal, I really recommend SNB Mastering in Ville-St-Laurent. Slipstream

well im using protection while im in da club , no unwanted pregnencies for me... lol im wearing EAR protection, so thats fine...

and belive me that the people i know that master their own tracks are using the best monitoring devices and using the most acoustic enviorment they can get in their home studio... and they went out on vynil... soo...

___________________
Music----is----universaL

Pay a visit good fella:

Xetro's MySpace

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quote:

Originally posted by Etherium The fact remains, some electronica songs aren't professionaly mastered and they sound great to me and to many others. There is no doubt that none of us here could do as good of a job as a professional could, but we can improve our tracks at least to a small extent.

Or at least, many electronic productions aren't mastered until they get signed. Go download GTR's "Mistral" from the singles section, because that is unmastered
I think too many people put way too much emphasis on mastering, when it really isent the mastering thats important, its the mixdown if the mixdown isn't good enough. End of story. No amount of mastering, eqing or whatever other post-mix trickery will turn a terrible mix into a good one. How many times do you hear a track on these forums where the clap is either 50db louder then the hihat.....and mastering cant fix that not only that, if you have two seperate channels, and ones a few deciabls out from the other, and there both too high or low in particular particular frequency... you're stuffed


THe fact is, if you're percs sound like a gnats fart,
mastering wont fix fuck all

Very nice tips.. I read all the thread.. no my opinion on mastering is that, ofcourse you can't compare a bedroom studio to a pro one, but still and everyone in the thread has said this Crap in = crap out. so it really doesn't matter too much on mastering if its already crap, I'll worry about pro mastering when I can afford it otherwise, I'll leave it on hold

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just remember one thing everyone, reading this thread and info on other sites won't be enough to be able to master good, you need to practice practice and practice even more...

I remember my first masterings I did on my tracks, total catastrophy put on way to much strereospread, bass, mid, high....you name it


mastering is a very delicate thing and not all of ya here will be able to do good masterings at all, no matter how much you practice...you need to have good ears and you need to be very good at separating frequencies and hearing a good balance between em (the last things can be trained but if you donät have very good ears you will have a very hard time doing it)

remember, mastering is not just an enhanchment to sound, it's an art and a science

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quote:

Originally posted by davedresden i suggest getting the gabriel & dresden prog-a-minute. in 3 easy steps you too could change the face of dance music. batteries not included. - dave

A couple quick things I've noticed about this useful thread.

We all have the same credibility, right? So why are you all just repeating what others have said?

I really like the comprehensive articles some have posted, they provide alot of insight into what, more or less, needs to be done to a track to improve it.

I am sure each unique song would require a different mastering process. I guess that is sort of obvious. But it does help to read what generally makes a song sound warmer, and fuller. Because that is what we are all after.

With risk of being a hypocrite, I have to say I agree with Slipstream on many of his points. "You don't send a boy to do a mans job."

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