quote:

Originally posted by rupert To be blunt they would have done better if they had something like suicide bombers though obviously with their technology level that wasnt possible.

So they could steal British guns and use them, but stealing British gunpoweder, strapping it across their waist, and blowing themselves up with it, is to technologically complex for these guys eh?

Or perhaps they were just sane?

Now as for "ethnic cleansing". There was no "Ethnic cleansing". Yes, some people were forced out of their homes, but we must rememebr this was during a WAR. Jews were likewise expelled from Palestinain controlled areas in 1948. Many people are expelled or flee (the majority always tend to flee) in every war. These people become refugee. You see the only refugees in the world to not be intergrated and get passed their refugeeism seem to be the Palestinians, odd no?

quote:

The PLO. Despite what is said by the Israelis the PLO is a very sorry excuse for a liberation organisation.

No, this IS what the Israelis say.

quote:

The Israelis well, they dont really care what anyone thinks, they use diplomacy knowing that they have the upper hand, what with a massive army and Uncle Sam in its corner. They think the PLO is weak. The Israelis. At its core Israel is a deeply divided country, a secular western element on the one hand and a nasty vicious racist element on the other. At its core both elements believe that Israel is a Jewish state, a home for Jewish people, no matter they have never lived their before a jew can always migrate to Israel. Contrast this with an Arab palestinian whose grandparents were driven out of Israel by the Stern Gang or whoever, they have no right to live in Israel, unless they were lucky enough not to get driven out in 1948. That is the core issue. Israel is a state for jewish people. Arabs are second class citizens pure and simple. Until that notion is abandoned, the dispute cant be resolved. The Israeli people conditioned to expect their army is invincible enter any negotiations knowing that they can dictate terms. The guys who did all the negotiations were probably thinking "You dont like the terms of the agreement arabs, too fucking bad. what are you going to do, how many tanks, helicopters do you have?" They are wrong though. Superior firepower never guarantees victory or security.

I don't know where you got the stuff to form your theory above, but it is quiet far fetched by all sides except the most extreme. You might want to re-examine these views one day, so you may arrive at a better realistic assessment of the situation/

quote:

Of-course even the pathetic deal offered to the arabs in OSLO was still to much for the Settlers. Thus the death of the Israeli primeminister.

Again, this is a very extremist view point, and highly debatable. Lucky for you, I don't feel very debatable today

quote:

The only way for a peaceful solution in my view is 1 an apology by Israel to the palestinians for what happened in 1948

What did happen in 1948?? Do you know?
If Israel had to apology it would go something like this:
"We are sorry you decided to attack us in an effort to exterminate the whole lot of us, and we didn't lose to you, but actually put up a better fight then you and kicked your ass".

quote:

2 reparations in the form of compensation to those arabs who can prove they or their immediate relatives were driven out of their land in the war.

Ok, but fair enough. If we get palestinains who fled of their own will (and then some that were expelled) to get payed then I first ask that:

1. Israel gets payed reperations from the Arabs who did attack them in 1948.
2. Israel gets payed by Syria, Egypt, Jordan, and the PA for all wars and deaths caused to them and by them over the long years.

Further, Jews require all the governments of Europe, Russia, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Tunisia, etc, where they fled for their lives under severe persecution during times of war and peace to pay reperiations for these people.

quote:

3 immediate and unconditional withdrawl of the settlements

Why unconditional? Did Israel just lose a war to the Palestinians that it can bring no conditions of its own?

What makes you think Israel will change its mind on its preconcieved 'condition' that will lead to the withdrawl of the settlements - Security?

quote:

4 investment in the West Bank and Gaza in the form of factories, roads, hospitals etc.

Ok, that part Israel already did - repeatedly.

quote:

5 replacement of the leadership of the PLO with more effective and less corrupt leaders.

Wait, so now you actually want Israel, to chose the leadership of the Palestinians?? Even Israel, won't do this now (even though they would probably love to).

quote:

6 return the Golan heights to Syria.

What, how'd Syria come into the Palestinian mix?

quote:

7 negotiate contractual arrangements for the Water Supply that israel needs from the Palestinian Authority and Lebanon.

Sure, why not. Why throw Lebanon into the mix though? To complicate it further so no accord can be reached with the PA alone?

quote:

Of course Israel will never do any of the above things,

Well Israel already HAS done point 4 and 7.

Ok now in summary of your "peace points". What do the Palestinians have to do in exchange for this peace? Nothing I see eh? Not even stop all terrorism, and be buddy buddy with Israel huh?

What in the world therefore makes you believe that then Israel would agree to such unilateral and backwords setting agreements?

I mean I would think out of the 7, you might have included something where the Palestinans DO something in exchange for all they recieve. Or do you think they are perfectly fine how they are right now?

quote:

even if the Likud party lose the election. The political system is too fractured and the population are to convinced that their army and their nuclear weapons will protect them.

*YAWN*, ya to bad Israel has no "unity" or coalition government... too bad I guess they will have to nuke Palestinian areas - as if that would ever happen viably. .... WACKO!

quote:

Therefore the middle-east problems CANNOT be resolved via negotiation. The people on the ground on both sides are not prepared to accept a negotiated settlement even if one were offered.

What?? What negotiated settlement.. what you offered above was a 7 point plan on how to destroy Israel. It was no settlement, their were no Palestinian concessions what so ever.

And furthermore you are right, they're won't be a negotiated settlement anytime soon - but its not because "nuclear powered Israelis" don't want it but that the "stone propolled palestinians" seem incapable of comprehending it. This is the history and fact of the event.

quote:

Israel WILL lose this war. Principally because the Arabs after fifty years finally believe they can win.

Oh ya, and Israel will win this war because ahhh "they really, really want to! So there!". Come on, the Arabs have thought throughout fifty years that they finally believe they can win. There will be peace, when they FINALLY believe they can lose (as we saw with Egypt and Jordan).

quote:

Arafat the PLO have no more control over the suicide bombers than I do of when the sun comes up in the morning.

You mean to tell me, you give financial support to the sun, and instruct it on its daily activities and operations with utmost guidance and support? Blasphmey I say! Blasphmey!

quote:

Israel will gradually be ground into the dust economically when it can no longer afford its massive army.

You realize, if Israel ever befalls such a desperate fate, it will end once and for all the Palestinian conflict in the most efficient and possibly 'inhumane' way possible. So for the both of us, I hope you are wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Interesting how the aborginese never developed terrorism and suicide bombing campagins against their 'oppressor'.

Actually, I read in a book about the middle east and apparently the in the early days of the Zionist movement, when palestine was a british colony, the jews actually resorted to terrorism. If I can remember, there was a group called the Irgun who were a more militant and radical part of the Zionist movement. Their acts of terrorism against arabs and the british was not condoned by the whole Jewish community. You are right, they didn't use suicide bombings though.

The problem with the palestinians is that they are being used by all the other arab countries as a weapon against Israel. No Arab countries would accept (and still won't) accept palestinians into their country. The Arabs all seem to hate each other. THey seem to have this tribal mentality, so it's no surprise that they can't get along with the Jews. Many palestinians are Israeli Arabs who are accepted as Israeli citicens. I bet if Palestine was a State, Jews still wouldn't be allowed to be there.

Thanks for the great points Yoepus and Drewfactor!

Drewfactor brought up a good question i used to always ask... Why is it that the other 20 or so Arab countries dont take the so called 'palistinians' into their country as opposed to letting them stay refugees.
So many years and they still dont want the... please xplain to me why israel would - esspecially after the violence you wage against our beautiful country!

Cant wait to go back to my homeland where i was born. to see the beautiful mediterainian coastline from my apartment in Haifa.
How long should i visit this time... 3 weeks? 2 months... no, probably May to Sept, so perhaps 4 months!!
Cant wait to kiss the ground when i get off the plane in Israel. the home of every Jew! Where we feel free to be who we are. we could walk down the streets wearing a 'kippah' and not be spat upon or discriminated against... If it we're not for Zionism and its mission to free the jews of the world, i would, along with every other jew, probably be extinct right now!

G-d bless Israel and those nations who support it!
Amen!

___________________
Signature Suspended as it was deemed offensive.

quote:

G-d bless Israel and those nations who support it! Amen!

>JM<

VIVA PALESTINE!!!!!

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King VIVA PALESTINE!!!!!

What are we making victory speechs now?
Well then fine!

"A people should know when their conqured"

Oh wait, no that was just a quote from Gladiator. damn.

quote:

Originally posted by drewfactor Actually, I read in a book about the middle east and apparently the in the early days of the Zionist movement, when palestine was a british colony, the jews actually resorted to terrorism. If I can remember, there was a group called the Irgun who were a more militant and radical part of the Zionist movement. Their acts of terrorism against arabs and the british was not condoned by the whole Jewish community. You are right, they didn't use suicide bombings though.

I'll expand just a bit more.
Some Jewish groups (not the mainstream ones, such as the Jewish Agency and the Haganah) did use tactics similar to "terrorism". And some can be termed directly such, especially according to your own persuassion. Attacks by the Irgun and many however were usually still strictly against the British adminstrative and military targets during their occupation of the area the Jews were fighting for independence. Attacks against Arabs, however, did include civilians (again civilian is an easy term to apply to any individual of a none formal national army, which neither the Jews or Arabs (of palestine) had) but were usually retaliatory in nature. Say, if Arabs would come in at night and kill several in a Jewish village, these groups would take it upon themselves to return the favor and the next night kill several in the responsible Arab village.

It is fair however to consider them a gurrellia and resistance movement, as these are undeinable. The problem with terrorism it is so losely defined, and so overused it has lost any of its value.

To put it simply, Jewish "terrorist" actions at those times, would be a far cry from any standard of today's Palestinian "terrorist", the latter of course being much worse and redefining the standard itself.

quote:

Basically if you would agree with me and still keep with your point, you think the locating of a Jewish state here is wrong... Do you?

Yes, that is exactly my point. Israel is a racist state, how can it not be if its purpose is a homeland for jewish people.

If I were to say to you, my suburb only allows Anglo-Saxons because we Anglos are afraid of other ethnic groups, what would you say I was. Not half obvious. A racist.

Yet Israel gets away with it by perpetually claim its people are historical victims. Anyone who criticises Israel is a racist. By Jewish logic We should we have an ethnically pure homeland for the Armenians, the Kurds, the Romani.

I seem to recall another leader who relied on fear and hatred of 'outsiders' to gradually isolate, alienate and ultimate exterminate. He said look at us we are the victims but its not our fault its the Jews and the Communists who are to blame. And people went along with it because they were afraid or secretly enviously of the Jews and they thought they might profit if they suffered. What was the result. In the long run did Germany benefit from going along with the Nazis and their race based idelogy.

A two state system or how it is now is not economically viable.

Just remember the white south africa of the apartheid era was just as racist as Israel. They gave up control voluntarily. There are still white people in South Africa and they still control the economy. It is always a mistake to judge others by the standards that you hold yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by rupert I seem to recall another leader who relied on fear and hatred of 'outsiders' to gradually isolate, alienate and ultimate exterminate. He said look at us we are the victims but its not our fault its the Jews and the Communists who are to blame. And people went along with it because they were afraid or secretly enviously of the Jews and they thought they might profit if they suffered. What was the result. In the long run did Germany benefit from going along with the Nazis and their race based idelogy.

Well, for once, a large Jewish group or organization that is up for expending territories through war and conquer in order to give the jews a larger living area to reproduce in and rule the natives is yet to have risen.

Any official organization with racist views has also never had any influence, and as much as I recall the last one that got close to it was the "KH" party who whore dissaproved of the right to be voted at the elections a decade and a half ago because they were too extreme.

quote:

Originally posted by rupert Yes, that is exactly my point. Israel is a racist state, how can it not be if its purpose is a homeland for jewish people. If I were to say to you, my suburb only allows Anglo-Saxons because we Anglos are afraid of other ethnic groups, what would you say I was. Not half obvious. A racist. Yet Israel gets away with it by perpetually claim its people are historical victims. Anyone who criticises Israel is a racist. By Jewish logic We should we have an ethnically pure homeland for the Armenians, the Kurds, the Romani.

Well, if you would ask for my point of view, it IS wrong to have a Jewish state, but for one reason: I'm far from being a religous person. Once people stop taking notice of a person's religion (And in Hitler's case, he defined the Jews as a race but that was lame, as I thin we could all agree), Jews could live anywhere as freely as they want.

That is not possible in the near future though, and as I've said, history slapped us hard time and time again, with the riots in Russia, St. Silvester and the inquisition, even these days with many Neo - Nazy movements in the United States.
Add the still hurting wound of Adolf Hitler and you have enough evidence to show that no matter how advanced and free-minded you think society is, as long as religion is considered, the ancient differences will rise at tough times and the outsider WILL eat shit.

___________________
Check My Music