quote:

Originally posted by DJ Nuclear Cute raccoon rakoon. I've got two of those TY stuffed ones. ^.^

Hehe, yeah I think theres only 2 different raccoons from Ty. Raccoons are a rather underrated animal me thinks

i say trance is simple in terms of making it,also you still need a good imagination to make a wicked trance track..but you still needs the skills to operate keyboard synths and samples and stuff...i say the most complex songs are classical music and movie soundtracks from John Williams, Danny Elfman etc..

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I think some of you people are missing the whole point when you say "You try making a song like (song name)". He wasn't saying whether a song is hard to make or not.

And yes, I am more of a can of classical music than any other genre. It always has, and it always will be.

Well, i'm back, and after another 20 or so responses, most completely off

topic, i'm going to simply skip most of them since they are irrelivant.

In general, most people here seem to be missing my whole point entirely. I

often see people say that "trance is intelligent" or "trance is complex", and

it isn't. Forgive me for not doing what I should have done at the beginning of

the argument, but at this point i'm going to define "complex" and

"intelligent".

The first one is easy, complex from this point forward means that an individual

piece of music has individual parts repeated many times without a significant

amount of change. The amount of musical techniques is also taken into account.

It can also refer to the amount of instruments as well, but as i'll show later,

you can have a complex piece of music with merely one instrument (piano).

Intelligent from now on will mean that it has a more subtle meaning behind the

music, with ideas expressed that are beyond just the melody. Intelligent music

requires use of musical techniques to show ideas that are subtle or beyond the

basic melody.

(before you all say that these are worded to help my argument, i'd like to say

that this is the idea I had in the first place when someone said "intelligent"

or "complex" when describing trance.)

So now to rebut the most intelligent reply so far, Alccode.

quote:

well, NOW we see true intentions! seems like we have a trance hater here.

once again, i am not a trance hater. right now i'm on vacation, but I return to

school on monday, and i should be home by sunday night. When I get home, i'll

have access to my mp3 server, PM me, and i'll show you my music collection, and

possibly share. Oh yeah, when i'm on the DC server, i'm generally one of the

top three sharers.

quote:

then we can EASILY say (and with even more authority) that the "emotion" in CLASSICAL is simply due to repeated themes that are so forceful that you can't help but pick up on them.

If you're talking about leitmotif's, then it doesnt really apply. Leitmotif's

are repeated yes, but they are always changed every repetition. Sometimes

tempo, time signature, key, octave changes or even adding instruments, they are

varried quite a bit between it being repeated.

quote:

if i had a nickel for every piece that had an unbalanced sound spectrum (i.e., overused, screeching violins galore!), then i'd be richer than oakenfold.

And if I had a penny for every time a techno song used only high screeching

sounds, and low bass beats, without anything in the middle, i'd have more money

than our nation's national debt. But even then, most classical music actually

has a wide range of instruments used in balance, from the bass to the piccolo.

Take for example Beethoven's Emporer's Concherto, with only a few instruments

produces a very balanced sound that mixes very well.

quote:

"it's so complex it would blow most of your brains" pfff... Vivaldi's the Four Seasons is the only thing that stands close to trance in terms of emotive depth. of course, complexity is not a good thing. i would say complexity is bad. just because something is complex, doesn't mean it's beautiful, or laden with emotion (in the case of music). in fact, it's often the opposite. oftentimes, classical gets so complex, with a zillion different instruments, played by a gigantic mega-orchestra, that it makes my brain turn to mush. where is the beauty there?

Apparently you're a classical classical fan. I much perfer romantic period.

(And in general, romantic uses the full 70 instrument symphony, where as alot

of classical and baroque tend to not use such a wide variety of instruments).

But, in this paragraph, you take the statement "complexity can not be a good

thing" and turn it into "complexity is always a bad thing". This is not true,

in that many times certain themes and ideas can only be expressed through use

of a variety of instruments and voices. Take your beloved four seasons for

example. What happens when you remove half the violins and the harpsicord (an

instrument I despise)? You dont have very much now, do you?

quote:

on the other hand, Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata is IMMENSELY SIMPLE. in fact, it's just ONE instrument. and yet it's so beautiful, filled with so much emotion, that it "blows my brains away" (or rather, my heart). if you haven't listened to it, please do (and a quality recording, at that). THEN you'll see REAL "blowing your brains away" quality.

Well, I suppose you had to show an example of how simplicity is a good thing.

However, if you'll look back to my definition of compexity, and actually listen

to the piece you just mentioned, you'll notice many tempo changes, key

signature changes, a wide variety in the leitmotifs, the use of all seven

octaves on the piano and a variety of other musical techniques, all these

techniques help create this "mind blowing" effect. Without them, the song would

be quite boring.
(and using moonlight sonata and the four seasons as two examples is quite

confusing on my end, because they are quite different, and make it hard for me

to get an idea of what you like)

quote:

i think you're in a trance-hating phase, and you've just gotten into classical, and think it's oh so much better than trance. after listening to classical for as much as you've listened to trance, you'll see that it's the same as trance, believe me. 1. like trance, not all of classical is great. 2. like trance, a lot of classical is "repetitive" 3. like trance, you have good songs and you have bad songs.

first off, i'm not in a trance hating stage, i still listen to trance

constantly, and only listen to classical on the side. I love putting on a good

liveset and having it in the background, but thats not the point. Oh yeah, and

my 18 gigs of classical music is the same 18 gigs I started out with when I

originally started collecting mp3's. Since then, i've gone through several

other phases before settling on trance, but I always kept that classical.

Classical is very hard to lump into one catagory, even though i've done it.

There are several periods with different styles, but even within those periods,

the music still has much more of a variety than trance does. The romantic

period especially has alot of originality. Listen to something like Beethoven's

Prelude und Liebenstod and explore works by Bach, Beethoven, Wagner, and

Chopin. With thousands of tracks produces by these men alone, you'll have

plenty of time.

quote:

take any classical piece with "emotion." it may be good, but chances are it doesn't hold a candle against something like Matanka - Lost in a Dream (push mix). (unless you're talking about vivaldi. but he doesn't count, he's a god.)

I dont know, emotion can really be a matter of opinion, but i'd say somethign

like Wagner's Elisa's procession to the Cathedral is probably more emotional

than that song you just mentioned.

Anyway, thats all the writing I can do for tonight. I'll be on later tomorrow,

or saturday if possible.

___________________
Have none

quote:

Originally posted by branmuffin Well, i'm back, and after another 20 or so responses, most completely off topic, i'm going to simply skip most of them since they are irrelivant. In general, most people here seem to be missing my whole point entirely. I often see people say that "trance is intelligent" or "trance is complex", and it isn't. Forgive me for not doing what I should have done at the beginning of the argument, but at this point i'm going to define "complex" and "intelligent". The first one is easy, complex from this point forward means that an individual piece of music has individual parts repeated many times without a significant amount of change. The amount of musical techniques is also taken into account. It can also refer to the amount of instruments as well, but as i'll show later, you can have a complex piece of music with merely one instrument (piano). Intelligent from now on will mean that it has a more subtle meaning behind the music, with ideas expressed that are beyond just the melody. Intelligent music requires use of musical techniques to show ideas that are subtle or beyond the basic melody. (before you all say that these are worded to help my argument, i'd like to say that this is the idea I had in the first place when someone said "intelligent" or "complex" when describing trance.) So now to rebut the most intelligent reply so far, Alccode. once again, i am not a trance hater. right now i'm on vacation, but I return to school on monday, and i should be home by sunday night. When I get home, i'll have access to my mp3 server, PM me, and i'll show you my music collection, and possibly share. Oh yeah, when i'm on the DC server, i'm generally one of the top three sharers. If you're talking about leitmotif's, then it doesnt really apply. Leitmotif's are repeated yes, but they are always changed every repetition. Sometimes tempo, time signature, key, octave changes or even adding instruments, they are varried quite a bit between it being repeated. And if I had a penny for every time a techno song used only high screeching sounds, and low bass beats, without anything in the middle, i'd have more money than our nation's national debt. But even then, most classical music actually has a wide range of instruments used in balance, from the bass to the piccolo. Take for example Beethoven's Emporer's Concherto, with only a few instruments produces a very balanced sound that mixes very well. Apparently you're a classical classical fan. I much perfer romantic period. (And in general, romantic uses the full 70 instrument symphony, where as alot of classical and baroque tend to not use such a wide variety of instruments). But, in this paragraph, you take the statement "complexity can not be a good thing" and turn it into "complexity is always a bad thing". This is not true, in that many times certain themes and ideas can only be expressed through use of a variety of instruments and voices. Take your beloved four seasons for example. What happens when you remove half the violins and the harpsicord (an instrument I despise)? You dont have very much now, do you? Well, I suppose you had to show an example of how simplicity is a good thing. However, if you'll look back to my definition of compexity, and actually listen to the piece you just mentioned, you'll notice many tempo changes, key signature changes, a wide variety in the leitmotifs, the use of all seven octaves on the piano and a variety of other musical techniques, all these techniques help create this "mind blowing" effect. Without them, the song would be quite boring. (and using moonlight sonata and the four seasons as two examples is quite confusing on my end, because they are quite different, and make it hard for me to get an idea of what you like) first off, i'm not in a trance hating stage, i still listen to trance constantly, and only listen to classical on the side. I love putting on a good liveset and having it in the background, but thats not the point. Oh yeah, and my 18 gigs of classical music is the same 18 gigs I started out with when I originally started collecting mp3's. Since then, i've gone through several other phases before settling on trance, but I always kept that classical. Classical is very hard to lump into one catagory, even though i've done it. There are several periods with different styles, but even within those periods, the music still has much more of a variety than trance does. The romantic period especially has alot of originality. Listen to something like Beethoven's Prelude und Liebenstod and explore works by Bach, Beethoven, Wagner, and Chopin. With thousands of tracks produces by these men alone, you'll have plenty of time. I dont know, emotion can really be a matter of opinion, but i'd say somethign like Wagner's Elisa's procession to the Cathedral is probably more emotional than that song you just mentioned. Anyway, thats all the writing I can do for tonight. I'll be on later tomorrow, or saturday if possible.

OHHHHHH WHO THE FUCK CARES

fine u dont think it is intelligent or complex...whats your freaking point....to some people it is...maybe not to you...but to others it is....same way some find Rap intelligent/complex and others dont....

get on with your life...this is moronic.

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Bring back 1994 NYC clubbing nights, cus the sh*t today is filled with junk parties and DJs that play sh*t House.....Zabiela, Sander, or Howells and all the rest suck and couldnt throw a night like it was in the early 90s in NYC!!!...Screw Twilo - give me Limelight circa 1993!!!

quote:

Originally posted by branmuffin Well, i'm back, and after another 20 or so responses, most completely off topic, i'm going to simply skip most of them since they are irrelivant.

Nowhere in your reply do you address a single one of my arguments. I think they are far from 'irrelevant,' unless you are the absolute authority on relevancy as well as 'intelligence.'

quote:

Originally posted by branmuffin Intelligent from now on will mean that it has a more subtle meaning behind the music, with ideas expressed that are beyond just the melody.

Would you care to explain how 'ideas' are expressed behind the melody? It looks like you are botching these terms in order to degrade the intelligence and skill that does exist within trance.

quote:

Originally posted by branmuffin So now to rebut the most intelligent reply so far, Alccode.

Interesting to note that you deem the most 'intelligent' reply the one which most closely agrees with you.

quote:

Originally posted by branmuffin Well, I suppose you had to show an example of how simplicity is a good thing. However, if you'll look back to my definition of compexity, and actually listen to the piece you just mentioned, you'll notice many tempo changes, key signature changes, a wide variety in the leitmotifs, the use of all seven octaves on the piano and a variety of other musical techniques, all these techniques help create this "mind blowing" effect. Without them, the song would be quite boring.

You seriously believe that the emotion of Moonlight Sonata is due to all the techniques you just listed? Furthermore, are you placing a value on the piece simply by the 'number of techniques' it implements? Sorry, but this is not necesarily how I judge the skill and intelligence that went into a production.

quote:

Originally posted by branmuffin but even within those periods, the music still has much more of a variety than trance does. The romantic period especially has alot of originality.

Classical has existed for hundreds of years and has more artists than trance does. Abusing people who feel trance is an intelligent form of music by comparing it to the monolithic power of classical is ludicrous.

No offense, sir, but you seem to simply be attempting to elevate your own status with this thread. The artistry of trance takes talent and intelligence, and I put it above most other genres in that respect.

Also, was it really necessary to double-space your reply?

Last edited by Cobalt on Jan-10-2003 at 07:29

I agree with tiesto14. This is stupid but O well, he sure seems determined to prove it's simple and that everyone doesn't understand the thread.

Why all the classical talk, this is Tranceaddict.com

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Top 5 ATM
1) 16 Bit Lolitas - Nobody Seems To Care
2) Roger Martinez - Kaleidoscopic
3) Ormatie - She Very
4) 16 Bit Lolitas - Murder Weapon
5) Alex Dolby - Cairo

i think someone's had too much musical theory...

you know... it's just not intelligent to implement tempo and key... trance is made for mixing and if you've ever tried mixing you know you can't have a changing tempo or key if you want to pull off a decent sounding mix...

trance is simple because it has to be and comparing it's complexity to classical music is simply a pointless...

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mmmm.. delicious...

Last edited by Choobak on Jan-10-2003 at 07:59

quote:

Originally posted by Choobak i think someone's had too much musical theory...

No kidding.

You really have a lot of time on your hand branmuffin, are you getting a kick out of this ? lol.

If you like trance then good listen to it, who cares if it's simple or complex it still needs a lot talent to make something so "simple" right?

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quote:

Originally posted by n0bben- those who claims trance is intelligent are those prog-addicts..and they are.. erm.. wrong.

so true, Music is meant to make you feel emotions!, being intelligent is not an emotion, maybe a nerdy really stupid guy may listen to "intelligent" trance so he can feel superior :S
thats just plain dumb

If there was no one listeting to "intelligent" music, then nobody would find it "intelligent", it would be just music that noone will here

Classical music isn't more "intelligent" than anything, its just been around for a really long time so that somebody invented a theory.

So stop wynning branmuffin, I had the same discussion about this with a Goa trancefan, and at the end its just plain dull conversation, nobody wins, and certainly not somebody who thinks as music as "intelligent", dumb people also like music, for what they feel, "Intelligence" is not a feeling.

Also I think the topic really got off topic, but what do you expect, you post something like this in a trance forum???....you are not that intelligent I see.

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