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Originally posted by melech_mike Huh?? Why are you getting all upset and shit? i never singled you out and called you ignorant... i actually like debating with you... keep it up! (no sarcasim!) I'm just talking in general. There are many ignorant people out there and on TranceAddict. People like shlomo_hamelech and i get very worked up when we see this, and thats why it may show in our posts. As someone whos life revolves around Israel, it gets very emotional to hear people saying shit thats so stupid you just wanna hit them. But you can't, because it wont solve anything. than you try and explain to them they are wrong and they wont even listen or go findf out more about what they are arguing. These people have been brainwashed to say certain things and cite specific events. They dont know shit and love to so easily through blame down on israel, or the supporters of Israel (ie. America).

You don't think his approach is ignorant?

Like I said I don't see blame, its not in my character. I see a problem and in my experience the solution is not proving who's right or wrong..

Truth is in the eye of the beholder, and you know this. If you read pro Israeli websites you are getting their perspective. Truth can be twisted in many ways, thats not to say there isn't truth on those websites, I'm sure there is quite a bit of truth there.

I'll tell you my personal opinion, since I've made my points without doing that so far.

I do support Israel, I do agree that the Palastine's are so focused on hate and propoganda that they don't see the problem really is mainly with their own leadership.. I think its sick and shamefull that children are tought to be killers and that people become human bombs.. All sick things.

The thing is you have to ask why is this? Because they have nothing to lose. That means you have to give them a reason to change their ways.. Many Israeli's are furious and hate them with a passion.. For good reason.

But that leaves you with two choices as I see it. Continue hating them and supporting the things that in return causes them to hate you. Destroy them all and continue dealing with horrible terrorist attacks for generations to come.

OR

Take the hard road to peace, that involves forgiving them for the past and of course for them to forgive as well.. Think of it like a married couple talking to a shrink, what they would be told is to forgive and truly move on from the past fighting.

People can only seek peace if its in their heart, and if you have the will and energy to accept peace with your enemies; then you are a brave and honourable man in my mind. Those who support continued violence and hate are in my mind taking the easy way out.

Its quite simple, but we all know that past suffering is hard to get over and to ask people who've lost loved ones in the past to forgive and seek peace is hard to do.

But that is the choice, suck it up and seek peace or deal with neverending terrorism for your children and their children.

Again I think the UN should step in to this conflict and the UN council should start real Peace negotiations.

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Originally posted by Thor You don't think his approach is ignorant? Like I said I don't see blame, its not in my character. I see a problem and in my experience the solution is not proving who's right or wrong.. Truth is in the eye of the beholder, and you know this. If you read pro Israeli websites you are getting their perspective. Truth can be twisted in many ways, thats not to say there isn't truth on those websites, I'm sure there is quite a bit of truth there. I'll tell you my personal opinion, since I've made my points without doing that so far. I do support Israel, I do agree that the Palastine's are so focused on hate and propoganda that they don't see the problem really is mainly with their own leadership.. I think its sick and shamefull that children are tought to be killers and that people become human bombs.. All sick things. The thing is you have to ask why is this? Because they have nothing to lose. That means you have to give them a reason to change their ways.. Many Israeli's are furious and hate them with a passion.. For good reason. But that leaves you with two choices as I see it. Continue hating them and supporting the things that in return causes them to hate you. Destroy them all and continue dealing with horrible terrorist attacks for generations to come. OR Take the hard road to peace, that involves forgiving them for the past and of course for them to forgive as well.. Think of it like a married couple talking to a shrink, what they would be told is to forgive and truly move on from the past fighting. People can only seek peace if its in their heart, and if you have the will and energy to accept peace with your enemies; then you are a brave and honourable man in my mind. Those who support continued violence and hate are in my mind taking the easy way out. Its quite simple, but we all know that past suffering is hard to get over and to ask people who've lost loved ones in the past to forgive and seek peace is hard to do. But that is the choice, suck it up and seek peace or deal with neverending terrorism for your children and their children. Again I think the UN should step in to this conflict and the UN council should start real Peace negotiations.

**applause**

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Originally posted by Thor Truth is in the eye of the beholder, and you know this.

Truth is in the eye of the beholder in much the same way that the color white is dark. The only way to be further from correct would to be completely nonsensical.

Now, what melech_mike is referring to truth here is not really truth at all, it is a series of assertions which he believes are true. Truth itself, that is, the property that these assertions may or may not have, is entirely devoid of subjectivity. However, because the tools for analyzing truth are relatively limited, many people make subjective analyses of the truth of assertions.

This does not, however, mean that truth is in the eye of the beholder. It only means that many of these analyses will yeild incorrect results. Reality is as it is regardless of whether we properly analyze it or not. That is truth - it is exactly that which is not in the eye of the beholder. It is the pure objective actuality of our world.

An interesting post arbiter. The concept of absolute truth is one debated for philosophers for thousands of years. I think it warrants it's own thread, but since this one has digressed already, i'll give my opinion.

I believe that absolute truth applies to some things, issues where human perception is not involved, except only as an observation technique.

For example, the question, "Is there gravity?", the obvious answer is yes, there is. regardless if there is a patient in a mental institution who thinks he is sticking to the roof and believes there is no gravity, regardless if einstein proved it with math, there IS gravity, and that is a fact.

However, not everything is like this. Take for example the question "Is trance the best music on earth?". I would say yes. Others would say no. In this case, there IS no absolute truth. because it is based on personal opinion. In this case the truth IS in the eye of the beholder.

Now, if you ask me the israeli/palestine controversy does not have an absolute truth. No one can say which side is right here.

However, we can say "what happened" with absolute truth.

unfortunately, due to bias, we might not know, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and it can be spupn to make us believe the bigger question of "who is right"

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Originally posted by JohnSmith An interesting post arbiter. The concept of absolute truth is one debated for philosophers for thousands of years. I think it warrants it's own thread, but since this one has digressed already, i'll give my opinion. I believe that absolute truth applies to some things, issues where human perception is not involved, except only as an observation technique. For example, the question, "Is there gravity?", the obvious answer is yes, there is. regardless if there is a patient in a mental institution who thinks he is sticking to the roof and believes there is no gravity, regardless if einstein proved it with math, there IS gravity, and that is a fact. However, not everything is like this. Take for example the question "Is trance the best music on earth?". I would say yes. Others would say no. In this case, there IS no absolute truth. because it is based on personal opinion. In this case the truth IS in the eye of the beholder. Now, if you ask me the israeli/palestine controversy does not have an absolute truth. No one can say which side is right here. However, we can say "what happened" with absolute truth. unfortunately, due to bias, we might not know, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and it can be spupn to make us believe the bigger question of "who is right"

Actually, nothing is right or wrong, true or false in this world, it all depends on how well each side is argued. With respect to gravity, that is a theory and still isnt proven, although there is so much evidence that it exists. There are new theories out there that disprove gravity under substiated laws. But i wont get into details becuase its too confusing.

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Originally posted by JohnSmith An interesting post arbiter. The concept of absolute truth is one debated for philosophers for thousands of years. I think it warrants it's own thread, but since this one has digressed already, i'll give my opinion. I believe that absolute truth applies to some things, issues where human perception is not involved, except only as an observation technique. For example, the question, "Is there gravity?", the obvious answer is yes, there is. regardless if there is a patient in a mental institution who thinks he is sticking to the roof and believes there is no gravity, regardless if einstein proved it with math, there IS gravity, and that is a fact. However, not everything is like this. Take for example the question "Is trance the best music on earth?". I would say yes. Others would say no. In this case, there IS no absolute truth. because it is based on personal opinion. In this case the truth IS in the eye of the beholder. Now, if you ask me the israeli/palestine controversy does not have an absolute truth. No one can say which side is right here. However, we can say "what happened" with absolute truth. unfortunately, due to bias, we might not know, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and it can be spupn to make us believe the bigger question of "who is right"

I agree with you for the most part, but I don't know that I'd agree that in the case of pure opinion, truth is in the eye of the beholder. I'd rather think of such assertions as possessing no truth value of any kind than assign them subjective truth values, because otherwise you're really talking about two totally different things when you say "truth" (this seems to be a major part of the problem with what melech_mike is saying).

I suppose to some extent, it's a linguistic problem more than anything else, because the word truth can be interpreted in many different ways.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Actually, nothing is right or wrong, true or false in this world, it all depends on how well each side is argued. With respect to gravity, that is a theory and still isnt proven, although there is so much evidence that it exists. There are new theories out there that disprove gravity under substiated laws. But i wont get into details becuase its too confusing.

uh... gravity has been proven, it's the absolute truth. are you floating out of your chair? it's true that there are places where the rules of gravity change, such as blackholes. but still, an object of mass X will attract an object to it with force Y, and that is the absolute truth.

as for "substiated" laws, that isn't a word? did you mean substantiated?

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quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter I agree with you for the most part, but I don't know that I'd agree that in the case of pure opinion, truth is in the eye of the beholder. I'd rather think of such assertions as possessing no truth value of any kind than assign them subjective truth values, because otherwise you're really talking about two totally different things when you say "truth" (this seems to be a major part of the problem with what melech_mike is saying). I suppose to some extent, it's a linguistic problem more than anything else, because the word truth can be interpreted in many different ways.

yeah, i think you get my point. So, in regards to trance, it's the absolute truth that it's MY favorite kind of music, and it makes ME feel better than any other kind. But that does nothing to prove or disprove that it's the overall best music. I suppose it's not a matter of linguistics but rather scope.

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Originally posted by JohnSmith uh... gravity has been proven, it's the absolute truth. are you floating out of your chair? it's true that there are places where the rules of gravity change, such as blackholes. but still, an object of mass X will attract an object to it with force Y, and that is the absolute truth. as for "substiated" laws, that isn't a word? did you mean substantiated?

Sorry, i meant substantiated. The theory of gravity is not truth... NOTHING is TRUE OR FALSE in this world. This is a theory that we came up with to help us understand this phenomena. Its a good freakin theory but it still doesnt 100% prove that gravity exists even though it happens around us. and with me floating in the air.... one can argue that im not fully attached to the chair as well.

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no, i disagree. gravity is a fact. you can try to obfuscate it all you want, but it's simply true. there is absolute truth in this world.

For example, the Earth is round, it travels round the sun, along with the other planets. we can observe this, and prove it, therefore it is absolute truth. things relating to nature are absolute truth. they exist in the way they always have regardless of what we think of them.

here is one more example that illustrates my point:

the Area of a circle is exactly A = pi x R x R
where A is the area, and R is the radius
just in case you don't believe me: http://www.mathgoodies.com/lessons/...ircle_area.html

this is a simple fact, involving the use of the constant pi (about 3.14). However, we do not KNOW the exact value of pi. it has been calculated out to thousands of decimals by super computers, and appears to have no pattern or predictable next digit. regardless of us not knowing this number, we know that the forumla is true.

this proves that despite human ignorance, there is absolute truth in this universe and we are capable of recognizing it.

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quote:

Originally posted by JohnSmith no, i disagree. gravity is a fact. you can try to obfuscate it all you want, but it's simply true. there is absolute truth in this world. For example, the Earth is round, it travels round the sun, along with the other planets. we can observe this, and prove it, therefore it is absolute truth. things relating to nature are absolute truth. they exist in the way they always have regardless of what we think of them. here is one more example that illustrates my point: the Area of a circle is exactly A = pi x R x R where A is the area, and R is the radius just in case you don't believe me: http://www.mathgoodies.com/lessons/...ircle_area.html this is a simple fact, involving the use of the constant pi (about 3.14). However, we do not KNOW the exact value of pi. it has been calculated out to thousands of decimals by super computers, and appears to have no pattern or predictable next digit. regardless of us not knowing this number, we know that the forumla is true. this proves that despite human ignorance, there is absolute truth in this universe and we are capable of recognizing it.

I can understand what youre implying, but again.... these formulas and examples are what we as humans have come up with to better understand these things. Although the earth may look round or sphyrical.... its not 100% true... we as humans have become to self ritrous in saying this is true.. no matter what.... becuase this theory or formula prooves it..

These formulas and may prove it in our mindset.. but we still dont know the Absolute truth....Im sure in thousands of years time... there will be more theories that will replace our current understanding of existence.

___________________
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