well, my source is nem & personal experience. not sure im convinced of the +4, but the rest work fine more often than not

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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN well, my source is nem & personal experience. not sure im convinced of the +4, but the rest work fine more often than not

I've not seen where nem said that so I can't see the context that it was written in.

But yes, you're right about +4 not sounding good. The whole point in harmonic mixing is that you make transitions to keys that share a lot of the same notes. A +4 on the camelot wheel is a major 3rd up. If you were to go from, for example, Cmajor-8B(which has no sharps or flats) to E major-12B(4 sharps), this won't sound compatible becuase there are 4 sharpened notes in the E keyed tune that will sound out of place with the tune in C.

A +1, however, would work. If you were to make a transition from E major-12B (4 sharps) to B major-1B (5 sharps), then this would sound OK becuase the B keyed tune only has 1 extra sharpened note that isn't in the E tune.

A +7 is a rising semitone key change. If you were to go from Bmajor-1B (5 sharps/flats) to Cmajor-8B (no sharps/flats), then this would, in theory clash as there are 5 sharps in the B key that don't belong in C. HOWEVER - I hear some DJs (esp hard trance/style) doing this a lot. The tunes aren't kept in the mix for long and are often done as a cut which is why you don't really hear them clash. This can sound great - you get a real boost in energy, and I hear some hard trance DJs mixing like this a lot, picking one tune after another that keeps on rising up the chromatic scale. However in theory, a semitone rise (+7) is a horrendous clash.

Last edited by est on Feb-13-2006 at 15:36

quote:

Originally posted by est A +7 is a rising semitone key change. If you were to go from Bmajor-1B (5 sharps/flats) to Cmajor-8B (no sharps/flats), then this would, in theory clash as there are 5 sharps in the B key that don't belong in C. HOWEVER - I hear some DJs (esp hard trance/style) doing this a lot. The tunes aren't kept in the mix for long and are often done as a cut which is why you don't really hear them clash. This can sound great - you get a real boost in energy, and I hear some hard trance DJs mixing like this a lot, picking one tune after another that keeps on rising up the chromatic scale. However in theory, a semitone rise (+7) is a horrendous clash.

I've done this kind of mixing with house, trance and it sounds very nice in my opinion.

here is a mix were I made it=
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=307322

When I did this mix I didn't know about harmonic mixing, but for m,y surprise they are all in key, or have the nergy mix, except for one transitions Could be that I key ina worng way that record maybe).

here are the tunes with the keys, so you can see the progression:
01. 9A (Em) Lostep - Burma (Sasha Remix + Radio Edit)
02. 2A (Ebm) Depeche Mode - Precious (Sasha's Spooky Mix Edit) 127.0
03. 3A (Bbm) Pole Folder - Inner Turmoil (Pole Folder, Stel & Marko Remix) 128.0
04. 1A (Abm) Junkie XL - Zerotonine (Slacker's Tens) 133.0
05. 1A (Abm) Junkie XL - Future In Computer Hell (Pt 2) 131.0
06. 12A (Dbm) Bakke & Ljungqvist - Bali (Original Mix) 132.0
07. 6A (Gm) Kosmas Epsilon & Viton - They Can Be Only One (Jose Amnesia Dub) 130.0
08. 8A (Am ) Niklas Harding Pres Arcane - Blue Circles 133.0
09. 1A (Abm) Mike Foyle Vs Signalrunners - Love Theme Dusk (Mike's Broken Record Mix) 135.0
10. 1A (Abm) Matt Darey Feat Marcella Woods - Liberation (Darey Deeper Remix) 134.1
11. 1A (Abm) The Cranberries - Shattered (Arctic Quest Bootleg) 134.0
12. 2A (Ebm) Tekara Feat Xan - Wanna Be An Angel (Original Mix) 135.0
13. 7A (Dm) Adam White Feat Martin Grech - Ballerina (Original Mix) 135.0
14. 8A (Am) Lume - Lume (Original Mix) 138.0
15. 7A (Dm) Goldenscan - Halcyon (Original Mix) 138.0
16. 7A (Dm) Coldplay - Speed of Sound (Karl G Remix) 139.8

now if you see from the first track to the second one, there is a 7 keycode difference, and the tracks are blended for over a minute and it seems to sound nice.
Also from track 12 into 13, there's a 7 keycode difference, and you can feel the change on energy.
from track 7 into 8 there ir a +2 keycode (one full tone or semitone difference), this is also an energy mix I guess.
I think the important thing abotu making thismixes, it's that the incoming track should start kicking hard at the exactly moment when the outgoing track stops kicking hard, (hope you understand me =)).

The only thign that I don't understand it's why the track number 06 matches withthe track number 7.
it might not be the bes tharmonic mix, but it doesnt sound bad either.

The energy mixes (+7), I think they can be made with any genre, you just have to do it at the right moment.

___________________
Here are my latest mixes:
Pepa - Pure Bliss (June 2007 Promo)
Pepa - Visual Thoughts (March 2007 Promo)
Pepa - Trippin' Again

Mash-ups:
Perasma Vs BT - Swing 2 Gravity (Pepa Live Mash-up)
I Trance You!

quote:

Originally posted by Pinokio I've done this kind of mixing with house, trance and it sounds very nice in my opinion. here is a mix were I made it= http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=307322 When I did this mix I didn't know about harmonic mixing, but for m,y surprise they are all in key, or have the nergy mix, except for one transitions Could be that I key ina worng way that record maybe). here are the tunes with the keys, so you can see the progression: 01. 9A (Em) Lostep - Burma (Sasha Remix + Radio Edit) 02. 2A (Ebm) Depeche Mode - Precious (Sasha's Spooky Mix Edit) 127.0 03. 3A (Bbm) Pole Folder - Inner Turmoil (Pole Folder, Stel & Marko Remix) 128.0 04. 1A (Abm) Junkie XL - Zerotonine (Slacker's Tens) 133.0 05. 1A (Abm) Junkie XL - Future In Computer Hell (Pt 2) 131.0 06. 12A (Dbm) Bakke & Ljungqvist - Bali (Original Mix) 132.0 07. 6A (Gm) Kosmas Epsilon & Viton - They Can Be Only One (Jose Amnesia Dub) 130.0 08. 8A (Am ) Niklas Harding Pres Arcane - Blue Circles 133.0 09. 1A (Abm) Mike Foyle Vs Signalrunners - Love Theme Dusk (Mike's Broken Record Mix) 135.0 10. 1A (Abm) Matt Darey Feat Marcella Woods - Liberation (Darey Deeper Remix) 134.1 11. 1A (Abm) The Cranberries - Shattered (Arctic Quest Bootleg) 134.0 12. 2A (Ebm) Tekara Feat Xan - Wanna Be An Angel (Original Mix) 135.0 13. 7A (Dm) Adam White Feat Martin Grech - Ballerina (Original Mix) 135.0 14. 8A (Am) Lume - Lume (Original Mix) 138.0 15. 7A (Dm) Goldenscan - Halcyon (Original Mix) 138.0 16. 7A (Dm) Coldplay - Speed of Sound (Karl G Remix) 139.8 now if you see from the first track to the second one, there is a 7 keycode difference, and the tracks are blended for over a minute and it seems to sound nice. Also from track 12 into 13, there's a 7 keycode difference, and you can feel the change on energy. I think the important thing abotu making thismixes, it's that the incoming track should start kicking hard at the exactly moment when the outgoing track stops kicking hard, (hope you understand me =)). The only thign that I don't understand it's why the track number 06 matches withthe track number 7. it might not be the bes tharmonic mix, but it doesnt sound bad either. The energy mixes (+7), I think they can be made with any genre, you just have to do it at the right moment.

I totally agree with that, just commenting that I hear hard trance DJs doing this a lot, just as an example of something that should sound odd in theory, but if done right then it can come off nicely. I'm dl'ing your mix now - cheers!

What do you mean by 'the energy mix'?

OK, I've found where nem said about the +4 mix (a major 3rd). Here's the quote:

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 The reason is that let's take 6a (Gm) works with a 3a (A#m) is because those notes are actually found in the chord of Gm. What you in effect are actually doing is creating a chord from the two tracks. If you do the 6a to 10a type mix you are creating a 'harmony' with Gm and Bm. These methods do work and are used regularly by the likes of Tiesto and Armin to give their sets extra energy. You will from time to time get tracks that don't work together in any of the harmonic mixing principals but that may be because they use incompatible scales rather than anything else....

quote:

I hear what you are saying and yes... let's be clear about this. If you let the songs drift to far into each other you will get a less than enjoyable result but as far as basslines are concerned etc you can combine tracks in these keys successfully and maybe even more dramatically than the regular methods.

Notice in the second quote, he states that if the mix is held for too long and the melodies/harmonies start to combine, then it won't sound that good. But if you had 2 tracks that were just basslines with one in Gm and the other in Bb, it could sound great. But here you wouldn't actually be allowing the harmonies of the tunes interfere with one another, as a bassline is really just a single note.

As Pinokio stated, its all to do with timing. My point is that you can be safer with mixing keys that are adjacent to one another on the camelot wheel (bearing in mind pitch of course). Other keys can work well (like the minor 3rd that nem mentioned, and the rising semitone) but you just have to be a little more careful with placing the mix. But if it comes off, it sounds great!

Last edited by est on Feb-13-2006 at 22:18

quote:

Originally posted by est I totally agree with that, just commenting that I hear hard trance DJs doing this a lot, just as an example of something that should sound odd in theory, but if done right then it can come off nicely. I'm dl'ing your mix now - cheers! What do you mean by 'the energy mix'?

Nice, hope you enjoy it =)

This is what I call the Eneryg mix

ADVANCED TECHNIQUE #2: MODULATION MIXES

As explained in the Harmonic Keys Overlay Chart, a modulation mix provides exciting results by jumping a half step or whole step on the chromatic scale without significant changes in speed. For example, a half step jump (seven keycodes) may be from E-Flat Minor (keycode 2A) to E-Minor (keycode 9A). A whole step jump (two keycodes) may be from E-Flat Minor to F-Minor. This type of mix can give quite a tangible lift to the energy on your floor. CAUTION: Do NOT attempt to overlay bass lines/melody in modulation mixes, only percussion segments of one source. Make sure the mix is complete when the new bassline/melody starts. Following the same procedures you can also modulate from a minor to a major key, or vice versa.

LINK


Thanks

___________________
Here are my latest mixes:
Pepa - Pure Bliss (June 2007 Promo)
Pepa - Visual Thoughts (March 2007 Promo)
Pepa - Trippin' Again

Mash-ups:
Perasma Vs BT - Swing 2 Gravity (Pepa Live Mash-up)
I Trance You!

quote:

Originally posted by Pinokio Nice, hope you enjoy it =) This is what I call the Eneryg mix ADVANCED TECHNIQUE #2: MODULATION MIXES As explained in the Harmonic Keys Overlay Chart, a modulation mix provides exciting results by jumping a half step or whole step on the chromatic scale without significant changes in speed. For example, a half step jump (seven keycodes) may be from E-Flat Minor (keycode 2A) to E-Minor (keycode 9A). A whole step jump (two keycodes) may be from E-Flat Minor to F-Minor. This type of mix can give quite a tangible lift to the energy on your floor. CAUTION: Do NOT attempt to overlay bass lines/melody in modulation mixes, only percussion segments of one source. Make sure the mix is complete when the new bassline/melody starts. Following the same procedures you can also modulate from a minor to a major key, or vice versa. LINK Thanks

Yup, that's the same as what I was saying about the rising semitone transitions that I often hear hard trance DJs pulling off very effectively. To go from major - minor, the relative is theoretially the best way to do it (on easymix, relatives are next to each other on the inner/outer part of the wheel, so if you're in Cmajor, the relative minor is Aminor).

Wow, I'm actually being quoted... makes me feel like Confucious or something he he. It's also reassuring to know that I have at least said one semi intelligent thing in my life.

I would also consider listening to the lady as she appears to know a lot more about music theory than I ever will.

Cheers
Nem

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https://www.mixcloud.com/Calvin_Karass/

It never actually crossed my mind to think of layering the basslines to create a chord of a third - im going to experiment with that now! So long as the harmonies don't start to interfere I would imagine that sounding quite effective. Would have to be extra-careful with timing, though.

It's just a question of knowing the track and also picking the tracks carefully.
The way I tend to use this though is more to get a lift out of a mix than to actually mix the tracks harmonically.

Cheers
Nem

___________________
https://www.mixcloud.com/Calvin_Karass/

Well I finally got around to attempting to key some of my tracks, and it's doing my head in!
I thought I'd start with something that is actually marked on the label what key it was in, just to help me hear it. I then tried to play along to another record only to sit there not being able to decide which root note was best. I'm not really hearing it yet, just gotta keep trying.
When it comes to tuning a couple of analogue synths, I can hear that no probs, but trying to get the music to match the note.... thats another story. I'm not sure what I should be listening to. I figure the bassline, but really all notes should be in the same key right?

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 It's just a question of knowing the track and also picking the tracks carefully. The way I tend to use this though is more to get a lift out of a mix than to actually mix the tracks harmonically.

Yeah that's my point exactly. The only reason this kind of mixing works is because you're layering the tonic basslines instead of actual chords and harmonies.