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Originally posted by jennypie You're implying it by saying that suicide is the ultimate selfish act. Think of how it will affect other people, yadda yadda. I doubt that the people in your ideal society would put so much value on the loss of ONE person.

I am talking about micro-societies, the nuclear family including the other spheres of friends, dependents (including coworkers, business partners, and others), and external one way relationships (those that a celebrity might have, where the person who commits suicide might not directly know the people, but the people directly feel a connection to them on some level).

While these are inherently small, they are all interconnected and introducing a weakness in one part of the web through emotional turmoil can lead to, while maybe incredibly slight, an impact across a far wider range. Not entire societies of course (save for national leaders, or major celebrities), but fairly large sections of smaller groups of people.

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby I stopped reading after this section Lira because we never were talking about suicide in any of those terms and I fundamentally disagree with those definitions to start with. This discussion has always been about violent and sudden suicide. You have created a perfect straw man argument in that section by willfully adjusting my position to a position that is easier to defend because its more broad and based around certain terms that this discussion was never originally about and was never agreed upon by me. In fact I had made clear that I was talking about these fundamentally two different definitions of suicide (failure to thrive and violent, sudden suicide) multiple times. So cool. Sucks you wrote that much but you could have at least hidden that it was an obvious straw man better.

Before you call it a straw man, maybe you should check and see whether any of those distinctions have anything to do with his argument.

Or, you could just evade the tough questions, like usual.

That would involve Nou checking and understanding his own premise for the argument, which he clearly has/does not.

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Originally posted by jennypie On that note, I'm off to do some gardening.

in the rain?

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Originally posted by Adamo in the rain?

Not raining where I am.

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Wow, thats not suicide though. There is a big difference between your grandma dying and the family knowing about it and being there and a parent not hearing from their son or daughter for a long time and worrying and their friends worrying and then finding their child dead in a bathtub bloated and decaying from not being found for a week after they slit their wrists. My grandfather also went out like your grandma, I mean in the way that the family had time to be around him and we were all there for his death and it was a somber occasion but we knew that he had passed and that was that, he coulda taken more meds to keep his heart going for a while longer but there wasnt a point. Thats not suicide though, not even close. Your view of suicide is pretty rosy if that is what you think of it.

no i dont think of it that way but technically she killed herself. She was not sick, she had no prblems other then she was old and she felt it was time to die, so she starved herself. Its alot nicer of a form of suicide and thats my point. Her taking her life was not sad at all and actually very noble. My whole point to that story is that suicide is a very grey area. It sucks when someone passes, It will always suck losing someone but sometimes you just have to let things go. Having someone find you with your head blown off or with your wrists slit or hanging is going to suck for that person who finds you for sure, and it will probably be scarring for life, but unfortunately with suicide your choices are limited, not everyone can get there hands on some lethal poison taht will make you go out peacefully with a smile. At least a bullet is quick painless and mist importantly it gets the job done

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Originally posted by DjWhooCares e-bully

Eric, you're not thinking about how the death will affect YOU.

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Originally posted by jennypie Not raining where I am.

damn...I was picturing you soaking wet on your hands and knees in soil all dirty n shit...*puts penis back down*

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Originally posted by jennypie That would involve Nou checking and understanding his own premise for the argument, which he clearly has/does not.

To be honest, I think the whole argument is rather pointless because it depends on the assumption that there's some meaningful distinction between selfish and non-selfish behavior. But it has been fairly amusing, so that's worth something.

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Originally posted by jennypie Eric, you're not thinking about how the death will affect YOU.

riiighhttt, well if its my brother i get his stereo. coooooool.

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO USA!

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Originally posted by DjWhooCares e-bully

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Originally posted by Arbiter Before you call it a straw man, maybe you should check and see whether any of those distinctions have anything to do with his argument. Or, you could just evade the tough questions, like usual.

He wasnt asking a question, but providing a response to one I had asked.