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Originally posted by KrazyDJs You still didn't proved that the IDF used human shields (If you said it that is, too lazy to look up for that post ). EDIT ogvh5150, I doubt if 1% of them have been hiding in the shelters for the last 12 days. I'm pretty sure they all live their lives in Tel Aviv, or any other city that doesn't get bombed. They still can voice their opinions, but it's easy to protest against a war you don't even "feel", isn't it?

If you're going to question the validity of my statement, you should at least search for a post where I may have confirmed that fact.

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My greatest accomplishment in life is that I've lived this long.

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Originally posted by venomX But then those who 'dont feel it' can use their intellect to come up with more reasonable plans. The problem with 'feeling' is that i clouds judgement and leads to irrational behavior. If we all guided ourselves by feeling organized society would not be able to exist. In the heat of battle, in the middle of a crisis, the only way to make objective decisions is to distance yourself a bit from what you 'feel'. I dont the time to look up the sources right now but psychologicial studies have proven that when performing tasks with heavy cognitive demands unless one is extremely proficient in them the presence of adrenaline in the bloodstream decreases effeciency by a great degree ie. making tough decisions with a hot head leads to bad decisions.

I agree with you partly on that. Because of that peace talks and decisions have to be made with no pressure and after those bombings from both sides stops, but again...it just hard to explain, that when you feel it you just see things differently.

interesting article:

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Why they love to hate us Some 1,500 years of anti-Semitism have taught us that there is something about us that annoys the world One hundred years of conflict, 6.5 years of war, billions of wasted dollars, tens of thousands of people killed, not including the boy lying next to me on a rocky beach at Lake Karon in '82, with his guts spilling out of his body. Both of us staring the wound until he was evacuated by helicopter. Until this day I do not know if he is alive or dead. All this, and it is still impossible to understand. It's not only what has happened. It is also what did not occur - the hospitals that were never built, the universities that never opened, the roads that were never paved, three years stolen from the lives of millions of young people in uniform. Despite everything, we are still clueless as to the core of the riddle. Why do they hate us so much? I am not talking about the Palestinians this time. The conflict with them is intimate, focused, and has a direct impact on their day to day living. Without getting into who is right or wrong, it is clear their reasons for not wanting us here are very personal. We all know that in the end it will be resolved: Between us, in blood, sweat and tears that will soak the pages of the agreement that is signed. Until then, this is a war we can understand, even if no sane person can understand the way in which it is being waged. But the others. They are impossible to understand. Why does Hassan Nasrallah - together with his tens of thousands of minions - dedicate his life and his considerable talent as well as the fate of his country in order to wage a war against a country that he has never seen, people he has never met and an army he has no reason to fight? Why do children in Iran who cannot even point to Israel on a map (mostly because it is so small) burn its flag in the city square and volunteer to commit suicide in order to destroy it? Why do Egyptian and Jordanian intellectuals incite the naive and helpless against the peace treaties, knowing full well that revoking them will set their countries back 20 years. 'So many ways to love your brother' Why are the Syrians willing to stay a pathetic and oppressive third world country in exchange for the questionable privilege of serving as patron to terror organizations that in the end will threaten them too? Why do they hate us in Saudi Arabia? In Iraq? In the Sudan? What have we done to them? How are we even relevant to their lives? What do they even know about us? And why do they hate us so much in Afghanistan where they are starving. Where do they even have the strength to hate? So many answers to this question and yet it is an enigma. There's the religious issue but religious people make their own choices. The Koran (together with the 'Shariya' - like the Halacha or Jewish code of laws) has thousands of laws. Why do we preoccupy them so much? There are after all a number of other countries that have given them more of a reason to be angry. We didn't start the Crusades, and we didn't rule over them during the Colonial era, and we never forced them to convert. The Mongols, the Seliceans, the Greeks, the Romans, the Crusaders, the Ottomans and the English, all occupied them, destroying and pillaging the entire region. We did not even try so how is it that we are the enemy? Is it about solidarity with their Palestinian brothers and sisters? If so then where are the tractors from Saudi Arabia for rebuilding Gush Katif? Where is the Indonesian team that is supposed to come and build a school in Gaza? Where are the doctors from Kuwait with the latest in surgical equipment? There are so many ways to love your brother, why do they prefer to help him to hate? Is it something that we have done? 1,500 years of anti-Semitism have taught us an excruciatingly painful lesson - there is something about us that annoys the world. So we did the thing that everyone wanted - we left. We established our own tiny country where we could annoy each other without bothering anyone else. We did not ask for much to do this. Israel sits on an area comparable to maybe one percent of the total area of Saudi Arabia. We have no oil, no natural resources. We did not occupy the territory of another sovereign country. 'The Iranians are responsible' Most of the towns and cities bombed this week were not stolen from anyone. Nahariya, Afula and Carmiel never existed until we founded them. Other Katyushas fell in places that no one ever doubted our rightful ownership on them. Haifa has history of Jewish presence since the third century before the Common Era. Tiberias played host to the last Sanhedria so no one can claim we stole these places from someone else. Nevertheless the hatred continues as if we do not share a common fate. The hate is operative, toxic, and insatiable. Last week the Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinijad called for the State of Israel 'to be eliminated' as if we were some kind of bacteria. We've become so accustomed to his declarations that we don't even argue. Israel never wanted to see Iran disappear. There were even diplomatic relations for as long as Iran wanted them. We don't have a common border or even bad memories. But they are still ready and willing to confront the entire western work, to face international sanctions, put their standard of living at risk, destroy what is left of their economy all for the privilege of rabidly hating us. I am trying but cannot remember: What did we do to them? When? How? Why is the Iranian president saying that 'The Moslem world's main problem is Israel.'? There are more than a billion Moslems in the world. Most live in substandard conditions. They suffer from hunger, poverty, ignorance; blood soaked conflicts that extend from Kashmir to Kurdistan and from Darfur to Bangladesh. And we are their main problem? How exactly are we bothering them? I refuse to accept the argument that 'that is the way they are'. 'They' used to say that about us and we've grown to suspect the statement. There has to be another reason, a dark secret that convinced residents of southern Lebanon to escalate things along a quiet border, to kidnap soldiers of an army that had withdrawn from their territory, and to turn their country into islands of rubble precisely at a time that they had finally extricated themselves from 20 years of rack and ruin. We have become accustomed to telling ourselves things like: 'The Iranians are responsible,' or 'Syria is stirring things up behind the scenes.' But that is really too simplistic. What about the people? What do they think? What about their hopes, their loves, their aspirations and dreams? What about their children? Do they really believe that hating us is enough of a reason to send their children off to die?

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,...3280348,00.html

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Originally posted by KrazyDJs ogvh5150, I doubt if 1% of them have been hiding in the shelters for the last 12 days. I'm pretty sure they all live their lives in Tel Aviv, or any other city that doesn't get bombed. They still can voice their opinions, but it's easy to protest against a war you don't even "feel", isn't it?

I was trying to be objective with regards to Israeli citizens. After all Tel Aviv is in Israel last time I checked and they did have some sort of protest against the war in Lebanon.

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Originally posted by ronk how blind can you be?

Obviously I have no trouble seeing your post.

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I'm not relying on those news articles in the internet I posted above, and I couldn't care less about that AP guy.

Really? Then why post the following:

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this 'war' broke because of the violation of these borders and the abduction. we got out of Lebanon 6 or so years ago, why would we even want to be there?

That is what the media is saying but somehow you talk out of the other side of your mouth by saying your "not relying on those news articles in the internet".

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I saw a video (yeah, with my own eyes) about it. the soldiers were in the middle of a patrol along the border within the territories of Israel. Hezbollah fired at them, killed three as far as I recall, and abducted two from the Israeli territories. I saw the soldiers vehicle, it was in Israel.

Not confirming what you've just typed but just where exactly in what town, city, province, county or village did the first attack on July 12th happen?

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A missile has landed today on the house of one of the protesters from yesterday...straight into his living room.
Hizbulla must be loling at this

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 Really? Then why post the following: That is what the media is saying but somehow you talk out of the other side of your mouth by saying your "not relying on those news articles in the internet". Not confirming what you've just typed but just where exactly in what town, city, province, county or village did the first attack on July 12th happen?

look, you said the abduction was in Lebanon, and you gave one article that showed it. I gave you 10 articles (I can search for more if you want) that showed you were wrong.
then you said that that AP guy who reported the abduction changed his version.
then I told you that I wasn't relying on these articles in the internet (which rely on that AP reporter; most of them anyway), but on a video I saw on TV (channel 22) and some other tv-shows on that channel and channel 10 here, which showed the vehicle of the soldiers that have been killed (and abducted) within Israel's borders.
anyway, I looked up for the full story and found a report (translated to Hebrew from Al-Manar - Hezbollah television station), that says the 'fights' began when Hezbollah's ambush near the border of Israel-Lebanon launched a missile and hit an IDF jeep, in order to kill and abduct soldiers. at the same time other Hezbollah troops tried to attack IDF positions and posts, other IDF vehicles and 2 Israeli villages in the north (Zarit and Shtula). Hezbollah abducted two soldiers after its troops crossed the border to Israel. they transferred the soldiers into Lebanon. IDF forces crossed the border into Lebanon and took control over some Hezbollah posts. along the Israeli-Lebanese border there is heavy gunfire, including tanks, choppers, machine guns etc.

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Let me rephrase what I asked:

Just where exactly in what town, city, province, county or village did this kidnapping/capture on July 12th happen?

I already know that there was an artillery exchange in Zarit and Shetula. All the news reports do not say where the capture happened. All they say is that there was a "cross-border" or "border" raid and never mentioning an exact location where.

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 Let me rephrase what I asked: Just where exactly in what town, city, province, county or village did this kidnapping/capture on July 12th happen? I already know that there was an artillery exchange in Zarit and Shetula. All the news reports do not say where the capture happened. All they say is that there was a "cross-border" or "border" raid and never mentioning an exact location where.

why is the exact location so important to you?
did the Al-Manar report that said Hezbollah crossed the border from Lebanon into Israel, abducted two soldiers from Israel and transferred them back into Lebanon - wasn't good enough for you?

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Where did the kidnapping happen? To say Israel makes it too general an answer.

Name the town, city, proper, province, village, borough or commonwealth.

In war, truth is the first casualty
Aeschylus

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Last edited by ogvh5150 on Jul-24-2006 at 01:03

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The concept of fighting a war for a limited, pre-established duration is, to put it gently, a post-modern one. Prior to the left's call for a time-table in Iraq, I'm not aware of any precedent for this peculiar approach to warfare. So it is fair to ask, what are the reasons why Israel should be allowed only a few weeks to finish a military operation it initiated in order to prevent its citizens from being bombed by an enemy committed to Israel's destruction?

Hmmm, interesting:

According to GOC Northern Command Udi Adam, the IDF had no intelligence warnings of the Hezbollah attack. After Shalit was kidnapped, he said, the army decided to up the alert level in the north for fear of a similar attack, but a few days ago, the alert was lowered again.
Haaretz on 14/07/2006
IDF retrieves bodies of four tank soldiers killed in south Lebanon


Would a lowered alert come with stepped down patrols? Makes one wonder.

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