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Originally posted by Renegade Strong agnosticism is the belief that the first cause (be it God or the big bang or whatever) is entirely unknowable. It was originally coined by Thomas Huxley to define this belief. Weak agnosticism can be defined in a number of ways depending on who you want to believe. Most of the time when someone says they're an agnostic it either means that they "don't know" whether God exists or not, or perhaps that God is, by definition, in some way unknowable, and thus it may be impossible to deduce whether or not he actually exists.

So then what differentiates a weak agnostic, believing that they "don't know" whether God exists, from an aetheist who lacks belief? Also what are you hehe? Damn you weren't kidding about your sleep cycle.

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Originally posted by LiquidX and on the Afterdeath, where those that have followed the right path, done right and believed.. though we will face judgement day. Theres much more to this, what Im talking right here takes alot of time to actually tell.. this is just my belief though. What I just wanted to point out is that, for those who believe, believe through Faith, and from that is what actually will help us be saved. But for those who want evidence, proofs to believe, or some kind of signs, I think that you will find many of it through the Bible, people will say is false, but there isnt any evidence that its false, more when its prophecies and teachies are nothing but for your own good, even if you are not religious, it teaches you how to be a better you. .. and yes, I always have many questions.. theres also those who pray.. and actually feel comfort when something is true.

On the "afterdeath" part......you say "beleived"....now is that to say that if one is a skeptic and questions the existance of God, the Bible and heaven they "might" not go to heaven?.....

I ask this because i really "want" to beleive in a heaven...but i find myself foten questioning God, the Bible and heaven and asking my friends to prove the truth behind it all....does that mean, if there is a heven, that i would not go?

If i would not go because of skeptism, doesnt that go against God gift of "free will"...didnt he allow us to think freely...so how can he condemn people who use their free will and question the unknown?...

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Originally posted by tiesto14 If i would not go because of skeptism, doesnt that go against God gift of "free will"...didnt he allow us to think freely...so how can he condemn people who use their free will and question the unknown?...

That's what I was kind of alluding to when I asked the question of whether Djbaron believed in God having a master plan for everyone. If God has an intent or a master plan for each and every one of us (God meant for your wife to die of cancer and now she's in heaven) then doesn't that indicate that our destinies are pre-determined? If our fate is predetermined than doesn't that negate the whole theory of God giving us free will? If God has a master plan for my fate, whether it be an untimely death, or him showering me with good fortune, then how do I have free will to determine my fate?

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Last edited by occrider on Sep-15-2003 at 20:17

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Originally posted by occrider That's what I was kind of alluding to when I asked the question of whether Djbaron believed in God having a master plan for everyone. If God has an intent or a master plan for each and every one of us (God meant for your wife to die of cancer and now she's in heaven) then doesn't that indicate that our destinies are pre-determined? If our fate is predetermined than doesn't that negate the whole theory of God giving us free will? If God has a master plan for my fate, whether it be an untimely death, or him showering me with good fortune, then how do I have free will to determine my fate?

Good point...but to play devil's advocate....maybe God did give us free will BUT also a predetermined path....and DURING are stay here we have free will to do what we please even though the end has already be written...in other words...God gave us this life...do with it what you please.

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Originally posted by occrider So then what differentiates a weak agnostic, believing that they "don't know" whether God exists, from an aetheist who lacks belief?

Well, exactly. Regardless of what you want to call yourself, if you don't believe in a God you're an atheist. When many people use the term "agnostic", though, what they're really talking about is a "suspension" of belief rather than a "lack" of belief (there's a slight albeit questionable difference). They don't have a specific belief in a God (which would technically make them an atheist) but they're still "suspending" their belief or lack of belief on the basis that more information may become available - that is, they don't think that, for whatever reason, the God question is answerable at this time.

Use a poll for an example:

Do you believe a historical Jesus ever existed?

a) Yes
b) No
c) Maybe/Don't Know

On the HJ question I'd consider myself an agnostic. I see that there is evidence supporting both perspectives (belief that he did/didn't exist) but the evidence supporting either perspective balances out to the extent that it is difficult for me to hold firm to the belief that Jesus did or did not exist. I don't feel that there is enough evidence to say that he did exist, but too much to say that he didn't - and I suppose that this is what the agnostics feel when it comes to the question of God.

Personally I don't see enough evidence to suspend my belief concerning the existence of a God.....

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Also what are you hehe?

..... which is why I'm happy to call myself an atheist. I, like everyone else on this forum, was born an atheist, and - in the absense of any real evidence - have remained one to this day.

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most of this has already been said several times, but here goes anyways... atheism means, literally, "without god-belief".. etymologically, a-(without) theism-(god belief). i consider myself an atheist in this literal sense, and i often refer to myself as an atheist. i don't hold a positive belief that any gods exist. however, common usage of the word "atheist" tends to portray "one who beliefs god does not exist." i tend not to follow that line of reasoning, as i don't think atheism and agnosticism are mutually exclusive.

but if anyone is interested, here is a paper that makes a case for using that alternate (not literal) meaning of atheism, and explains the differences between that definition of atheism, agnosticism and noncognitivism:

http://www.infidels.org/library/mod...definition.html


richard

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Originally posted by occrider That's what I was kind of alluding to when I asked the question of whether Djbaron believed in God having a master plan for everyone. If God has an intent or a master plan for each and every one of us (God meant for your wife to die of cancer and now she's in heaven) then doesn't that indicate that our destinies are pre-determined? If our fate is predetermined than doesn't that negate the whole theory of God giving us free will? If God has a master plan for my fate, whether it be an untimely death, or him showering me with good fortune, then how do I have free will to determine my fate?

Well this is actually one "atheist" argument that I don't agree with (though it has nothing to do with the existence of God). I'm a compatibilist like David Hume in believing that Free Will and Determinism are compatible rather than being mutually exclusive. That is, we can live in a deterministic universe and still possess "free will" without any logical problems.

But that argument's gonna have to wait until tomorrow because I really need to get to bed. :-/

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Originally posted by tiesto14 On the "afterdeath" part......you say "beleived"....now is that to say that if one is a skeptic and questions the existance of God, the Bible and heaven they "might" not go to heaven?..... I ask this because i really "want" to beleive in a heaven...but i find myself foten questioning God, the Bible and heaven and asking my friends to prove the truth behind it all....does that mean, if there is a heven, that i would not go? If i would not go because of skeptism, doesnt that go against God gift of "free will"...didnt he allow us to think freely...so how can he condemn people who use their free will and question the unknown?...

We are all in a plan. We are here to be tested, and once you die, you will have the opportunity to believe or repent.. know what I mean!?!.... and if you dont believe, then is because you havent searched or payed any attention.... but if you die without believing, you will have the chance later to repent, like I said and learn.

I think you are mis-understanding the gift of "free will" and what you question yourself. If you question the unknown, then try to find an answer, and if you are good enough, and really bond to know if theres a god, get yourself some time, be a good one, and pray.. if you really think you want some type of answer... or just, you may read the Bible, have you ever read it?!?!..

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Originally posted by occrider That's what I was kind of alluding to when I asked the question of whether Djbaron believed in God having a master plan for everyone. If God has an intent or a master plan for each and every one of us (God meant for your wife to die of cancer and now she's in heaven) then doesn't that indicate that our destinies are pre-determined? If our fate is predetermined than doesn't that negate the whole theory of God giving us free will? If God has a master plan for my fate, whether it be an untimely death, or him showering me with good fortune, then how do I have free will to determine my fate?

God is "the all powerfull". We as human beings are not capable yet to understand many things, so making questions further then what we should know I dont know how to answer. But I will say this though. The plan, like I said before, is have a body, be able to sense, feel and live with a free will. We make our own choices. Now, we make our own destiny, but because your wife died of cancer, its because of the nature of us human. We all have to die some day, one way or another.. so I dont think that relating our fate been determined and the free will have nothing to do with each other. Free Will is done in order for us to make our own choices ( between good an evil ).. not that we choose our fate. Our lives and fate depends on God. He will not interfere though with the way thinks work here on earth.
How can you have free will to determine your faith anyways? .. imagine if we had the will to die whenver we want, thats out of this world hehehe.. thats something that only god knows.

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Last edited by LiquidX on Sep-15-2003 at 23:43

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Originally posted by tiesto14 Good point...but to play devil's advocate....maybe God did give us free will BUT also a predetermined path....and DURING are stay here we have free will to do what we please even though the end has already be written...in other words...God gave us this life...do with it what you please.

More like.. do what you please, but on Judgement day, your screwed if you are a person like Hitler or Bin Ladin.. or as bad as a raper.. know what I mean?

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Originally posted by DJBARON lets see if any of these people that laugh when I base things on G-d and religion can back up their laughs, or are, as we expect, full of SHIT!

Out of confusion you create something permanent,...the Absolute, God.

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Originally posted by LiquidX We are all in a plan. We are here to be tested, and once you die, you will have the opportunity to believe or repent.. know what I mean!?!.... and if you dont believe, then is because you havent searched or payed any attention.... ...If you question the unknown, then try to find an answer, and if you are good enough, and really bond to know if theres a god, get yourself some time, be a good one, and pray.. if you really think you want some type of answer... or just, you may read the Bible, have you ever read it?!?!..

what about those who have earnestly looked for some sort of sign of gods existance? i have read most of the bible, but not its entirety, and i must say, have found no answers to my questions. I also have prayed, and prayed, and prayed; i've prayed my heart out. i have not found any answers to my prayers, no matter how hard i look.