condemnation before investigation is the mark of a fool

the problem with both sides in this conflict is that both wants everything now, black or white, all or nothing...

little to no progress can be made with 2-5-10 years plans. There's no patience whatsover on both sides, especially on the Palestinian side who has been living in tents and miserable conditions for 50 years.

___________________
[/IMG]http://i54.tinypic.com/ngycqo.png[/IMG]

quote:

the problem with both sides in this conflict is that both wants everything now, black or white, all or nothing...

sense of entitlement blinds the senses

quote:

President Harry S Truman Put an underdog on top and it makes no difference whether his name is Russian, Jewish, Negro, Management, Labor, Mormon, Baptist he goes haywire. I've found very, very few who remember their past condition when prosperity comes.

I don’t expect Israel to create a Palestinian state. I expect Israel to remove its military from our land so we can create our state. Negotiations were undermined because the Israeli military was acting immorally in the Palestinian territories, continuously harassing people, not allowing them to go to work and earn their income, shooting at demonstrators, blocking freedom of movement where pregnant women lost their children because of having to give birth at a checkpoint and on and on. The people decided to resist. Unfortunately, Hamas used a suicide bomber, but that did not stop Arafat from negotiating. But it stopped Israel. There shouldn’t be any negotiations in the first place. The occupation is a violation of human rights. Palestinians are treated like dogs in their own land. But we choose to do what Israel wants us to do over and over. Once we get fed up, we fight back. And some methods of fighting can be wrong and immoral.

I’m not putting ideologies in your mouth, you are putting them in your head. Especially Viber. He keeps arguing that Israelis love to kill Palestinians in a sarcastic manner, and at the same time saying that our resistance organizations want to destroy Israel. How racist is that? I could easily tell you the same thing in a sarcastic tone: Palestinians love to kill Israelis and are evil and have no soul. Please, start arguing intelligently.

The Hamas suicide bombing that took place in 1994 was a response to the Hebron massacre by an Israeli terrorist.

You want me to question the problems in Palestinian society? The problems of a society are not primary until the invasion of that society by another is over. There are problems in every society, buddy. I can give you the problems of Israeli society and so-called democracy. You just love to get off the real problem and blame it on the problems of Palestinian society and PLO. Of course they have problems. There are Palestinian gangs in Gaza right now that threaten each other. There are corrupt officials in the PLO and more. But you would rather put the blame of failure on these problems rather than the continuous occupation that prevent cures for these problems. It’s kinda difficult to fix our problems when we have been invaded by a foreign power and when our leader is stuck in his Ramallah hole.

You want us to sign a fuckin paper. Exactly. That’s your problem. You want us to sign whatever the fuck you present us. Well we didn’t like that paper. And we will not sign it until you write a better one. One that’s fair and not the garbage that Barak likes to call “generous”. And Arafat does what his people want. He represents us. And we wanted intifada. Simple as that. He told us to shut-up countless times during Oslo. Until he finally realized Israel’s deceit. He supported our decision and we support him.

And I’m not asking for your “extra-sympathy”, if you have any sympathy inside you, of course.

___________________
*** Sig will be edited -> see rule #5 regarding political/religious content
Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization: "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

quote:

Originally posted by Palestinian The people decided to resist. Unfortunately, Hamas used a suicide bomber, but that did not stop Arafat from negotiating. But it stopped Israel.

of course it would stop israel. negotiations can not be detached from the physical happenings of the surroundings. it was arafat's responsiblity to ensure that hamas stop using terrorism, ie disband the organization completely.

the israeli foriegn ministry released a statement in May 2001 saying that:

"Politically, the West Bank and Gaza Strip is best regarded as territory over which there are competing claims which should be resolved in peace process negotiations. Israel has valid claims to the territory based on the fact that the territory was not under the soveriegnty of any state and came under Israeli control in a war of self-defense, imposed on Israel. At the same time, Israel recognizes that the Palestinians also entertain legitimate claims to the area."

obviously Israel is aware that the palestinians have legitimate claims the territories. Claims that the status of which will be concluded only in peaceful negotiations.

quote:

There shouldn’t be any negotiations in the first place. The occupation is a violation of human rights.

says who? is the current occupation of afghanistan a violation of human rights? was the occupation of japan after WW2 a violation of human rights?
many things are violations of human rights. i tend to rationalize them in scales. i feel that being randomly killed on a bus is a bigger human right issue then being occupied.

quote:

There are Palestinian gangs in Gaza right now that threaten each other. There are corrupt officials in the PLO and more. But you would rather put the blame of failure on these problems rather than the continuous occupation that prevent cures for these problems. It’s kinda difficult to fix our problems when we have been invaded by a foreign power and when our leader is stuck in his Ramallah hole.

thats an excuse and you know it. no reasonable person would allow independence to a group of people who show little to no responsibility in governing themselves. I am of the opinion that if the palestinians truly aspire to be independent the must prove it before the matter. As more responisibility is proven, more of the occupation will disipate. tit-for-tat but in the good sense. not all one sided. and oh ya, your 'leader' is running the show very well even if stuck in his hole.

quote:

You want us to sign a fuckin paper. Exactly. That’s your problem. You want us to sign whatever the fuck you present us. Well we didn’t like that paper. And we will not sign it until you write a better one. One that’s fair and not the garbage that Barak likes to call “generous”. And Arafat does what his people want. He represents us. And we wanted intifada. Simple as that. He told us to shut-up countless times during Oslo. Until he finally realized Israel’s deceit. He supported our decision and we support him.

comprimise. thats all that i can say. neither side is going to get everything they wanted. sacrificies will have to be made. the impression i get is that the palestinians have an "all or nothing" mentality when negotiating.

___________________
If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

Actually you are mistaken when you say negotiations cannot be detached from the physical happenings of the surroundings. South Africa was burning with violence when negotations were taking place to lift Apartheid. Israel on the other hand loves to use Palestinian anger as an excuse to stop negotiations and take more land. And if you think that negotiations cannot be detached from the surroundings then I guess Palestinians have a right to stop negotiating as well. Israel never kept its responsibility to make it easy for Palestinians to live under the occupation. Nevertheless, the PLO is always available for negotitations, but Israel isn't. Too bad. Look at the consequences yourself.
When Arafat signed the Oslo accords, he officially became Israel's police officer. I don't see a reason for dismantling any Palestinian resistance in light of Israel's own terrorist behavior.

The occupation of Iraq is a violation of human rights.

You don't feel that being occupied is such a big issue because you don't know the meaning of it. You can't begin to imagine the torture of Israel's occupation.
And who are you to "allow" us independence? We shouldn't have to have the oppressor's approval. The Americans didn't take Britain's approval for independence.

___________________
*** Sig will be edited -> see rule #5 regarding political/religious content
Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization: "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

quote:

Originally posted by Palestinian I don’t expect Israel to create a Palestinian state. I expect Israel to remove its military from our land so we can create our state. Negotiations were undermined because the Israeli military was acting immorally in the Palestinian territories, continuously harassing people, not allowing them to go to work and earn their income, shooting at demonstrators, blocking freedom of movement where pregnant women lost their children because of having to give birth at a checkpoint and on and on. The people decided to resist. Unfortunately, Hamas used a suicide bomber, but that did not stop Arafat from negotiating. But it stopped Israel. There shouldn’t be any negotiations in the first place. The occupation is a violation of human rights. Palestinians are treated like dogs in their own land. But we choose to do what Israel wants us to do over and over. Once we get fed up, we fight back. And some methods of fighting can be wrong and immoral. I’m not putting ideologies in your mouth, you are putting them in your head. Especially Viber. He keeps arguing that Israelis love to kill Palestinians in a sarcastic manner, and at the same time saying that our resistance organizations want to destroy Israel. How racist is that? I could easily tell you the same thing in a sarcastic tone: Palestinians love to kill Israelis and are evil and have no soul. Please, start arguing intelligently. The Hamas suicide bombing that took place in 1994 was a response to the Hebron massacre by an Israeli terrorist. You want me to question the problems in Palestinian society? The problems of a society are not primary until the invasion of that society by another is over. There are problems in every society, buddy. I can give you the problems of Israeli society and so-called democracy. You just love to get off the real problem and blame it on the problems of Palestinian society and PLO. Of course they have problems. There are Palestinian gangs in Gaza right now that threaten each other. There are corrupt officials in the PLO and more. But you would rather put the blame of failure on these problems rather than the continuous occupation that prevent cures for these problems. It’s kinda difficult to fix our problems when we have been invaded by a foreign power and when our leader is stuck in his Ramallah hole. You want us to sign a fuckin paper. Exactly. That’s your problem. You want us to sign whatever the fuck you present us. Well we didn’t like that paper. And we will not sign it until you write a better one. One that’s fair and not the garbage that Barak likes to call “generous”. And Arafat does what his people want. He represents us. And we wanted intifada. Simple as that. He told us to shut-up countless times during Oslo. Until he finally realized Israel’s deceit. He supported our decision and we support him. And I’m not asking for your “extra-sympathy”, if you have any sympathy inside you, of course.

i cant find any sense in what you wrote,and not as a jewish person but as a regular human being that lives in this world.

quote:

i cant find any sense in what you wrote,and not as a jewish person but as a regular human being that lives in this world.

maybe because it's written in english

oh and tahiti slides in for a quick and easy won!



*clap* *clap* *clap*

This thread is proceeding nicely! I haven't seen a mid-east debate like this in tranceaddict what is it, 4 maybe 5 days now...

Bravo, bravo!

Don't stop now come on, Encore! Encore!

quote:

Originally posted by tathi maybe because it's written in english

arafat whould laugh if he will see this post

quote:

Originally posted by Viber arafat whould laugh if he will see this post

Call it a hunch, but I don't think his tastes in music involve electronica.

Of course, I've been wrong in the past......

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Call it a hunch, but I don't think his tastes in music involve electronica.

are you kiddin?!,its house music all night long in the mokataa