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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

quote:
Originally posted by Cyrus King
Im comparing LIVES with LIVES, but the difference is that they are two races. Western media values Israeli loss of life more than the Palestinian life.


You bring up a good point. First though realize the suicide bombing was not as big a thing as it would be say if it happened three years ago. The Media is getting conditioned to expect Israeli deaths as well.

The point you bring, that the western media values Israeli loss of life more that the Palestinian life, is interesting. I really wonder if it is the case with western media or it is that the Palestinians themselves do not seem to regard their lives highly?


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Old Post Jan-02-2004 16:33  Israel
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Palestinian
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Smiley DJ Checkpoints: Breeding grounds for hatred

This piece, published in the Ha'aretz today, was not written by a pacifist,
peace activist or a Palestinian. It was written by a retired Major General
of the Israeli military.

w w w . h a a r e t z d a i l y . c o m


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last update - 01:47 05/01/2004
Breeding grounds for hatred
By Shlomo Lahat

Two weeks ago, together with my friend Brigadier General (res.) Yitzhak Elron, I visited 13 Israel Defense Forces checkpoints in Judea and Samaria, near the cities of Nablus, Tul Karm and Qalqilyah.

The visit was conducted at the initiative of B'Tselem, and I must point out that the two people from B'Tselem who accompanied us throughout the visit did not try to influence us in any way. We saw and we formed impressions. And the impressions were very harsh.

The Palestinians arrive at one checkpoint by car, and there they have
to get out in order to cross over by foot to the next checkpoint on the road. The distances are not small, sometimes several kilometers.

At one checkpoint we met four mothers with eight blind children aged 4-5 who were walking to Nablus for medical treatment. It was a hair-raising sight to see the little blind children marching along led by the women.

Some of the drivers of trucks or taxis commit crimes such as the attempt to bypass a route or a path. They are punished by the commander of the checkpoint, some 18-year-old soldier, who decides for how long to delay the vehicle. The wait can continue from four to 24 hours, or more. It's up to the checkpoint commander.

We came across a convoy of 10 trucks driven by Israeli Arabs, who were bringing food to Nablus. A few kilometers before Nablus they were suddenly stopped, and told that entry into the city was forbidden. From the opposite direction came 10 trucks from Nablus in order to receive the food. They were stopped about 200 meters from the convoy coming from Israel. The local
commander prohibited the transfer of the food. How long would the two convoys remain there - unknown.

One of the drivers told us that he had been waiting near the checkpoint for over 24 hours. The situation repeated itself with the taxi drivers. Suddenly, without any explanation, they were forbidden to continue on their way, and were not told when they would be allowed to do so. In addition, they were forbidden to park in the place where they had been stopped, and were instructed to leave, without any explanation.

At most of the checkpoints there are no Arabic-speaking soldiers. As we know, a substantial percentage of Palestinians don't speak Hebrew, and of course the lack of communication creates problems. The connection between our soldiers and the population is expressed mainly in the giving of orders. There is no personal and human relationship, the soldiers don't talk to them and of course don't smile.

We must change the treatment of the Palestinian population. We must invest as much as possible in briefing the soldiers. They also look sloppy, dressed in overalls without insignia and wearing shoes that haven't been polished for a long time.

At the same time, I had the impression that the soldiers have no protection in the area of the checkpoint. Although they wear flak jackets, they can be fired on without being able to defend themselves. The checkpoints are dominated by the surrounding hills, which are not held by IDF soldiers.

I have no doubt that our soldiers are wonderful young people and excellent fighters. However, I am convinced that we are doing them an injustice by placing them in a difficult and sometimes impossible situation. They are liable to be discharged from their military service with difficult emotional baggage that may affect their personality development in the
future.

In summary: I am doubtful whether the checkpoints have in fact prevented the passage of a terrorist or of weapons. Every checkpoint can be bypassed. I have the impression that the only purpose of the checkpoints is to make things hard for the Palestinian population. I am convinced that the checkpoints constitute a breeding ground for hatred for Israel, and harm an innocent population in an inhumane manner.

During the course of our tour of the checkpoints, we also saw the separation fence. In principle, I am in favor of a fence within the boundaries of the Green Line. The present route, which cuts Palestinian villages in half, is causing an additional injustice to the population and is intensifying the hatred towards us.

All in all, for the sake of the Palestinians, but mainly for our own sake, the faster we end the occupation and leave the territories, the better for us. I am writing this because it is impossible to stand by and remain silent.


The writer was a major general in the IDF and a mayor of Tel Aviv.


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Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization: "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

Old Post Jan-06-2004 05:32  Palestine
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dj_ilan_yosef
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Global Ambassador

Who Are the Palestinians?
Yashiko Sagamori



A rebuttal:

If you are so sure that "Palestine, the country, goes back through most of recorded history", I expect you to be able to answer a few basic questions about that country of "Palestine":

1. When was it founded and by whom?

2. What were its borders?

3. What was its capital?

4. What were its major cities?

5. What constituted the basis of its economy?

6. What was its form of government?

7. Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat?

8. Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?

9. What was the language of the country of Palestine?

10. What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine?

11. What was the name of its currency? Choose any date in history and try and find the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, British pound, Japanese yen, or Chinese yuan on that date.

12. Have the Palestinians left any artifacts behind?

13. Do you know of a library where one could find a work of Palestinian literature produced before 1967?

14. And, finally, since there is no such country today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?

If you are lamenting the "low sinking" of "once proud" nation, then please tell me, when exactly was that "nation" proud and what was it so proud of?

And here is the least sarcastic question of all: If the people you mistakenly call "Palestinians" are anything but generic Arabs collected from all over - or thrown out of - the Arab world, if they really have a genuine ethnic identity that gives them right for self-determination, why did they never try to become independent until Arabs suffered their devastating defeat by Israel in the 1967Six Day War?

I hope you avoid the temptation to trace the modern day "Palestinians" to the Biblical Philistines: substituting etymology for history wonīt work here.

The truth should be obvious to everyone who wants to know it. Arab countries have never abandoned the dream of destroying Israel; they still cherish it today. Having time and again failed to achieve their evil goal through military means, they decided to fight Israel by proxy. For that purpose, they created a terrorist organization, cynically called it "the Palestinian people" and installed it in Gaza, Judea, and Samaria. How else can you explain the refusal by Jordan and Egypt to unconditionally accept back the "West Bank" and Gaza, respectively, in the aftermath of the 1967 war?

The fact is, Arabs populating Gaza, Judea, and Samaria have much less of a claim to nationhood than the American Indian tribe that successfully emerged in Connecticut with the purpose of starting a tax-exempt casino: at least that tribe had a constructive goal that motivated them. The so-called "Palestinians" have only one motivation: the destruction of Israel. In my book that is not sufficient to consider them a "nation" -- or anything else -- except what they really are: a terrorist organization that will one day be dismantled.

In fact, there is only one way to achieve piece in the Middle East. Arab countries must acknowledge and accept their defeat in their war against Israel and, as the losing side, should pay Israel reparations for the more than 50 years of devastation they have visited upon it. The most appropriate form of such reparations would be the removal of their terrorist organization from the land of Israel and acceptance of Israelīs ancient sovereignty over Gaza, Judea, and Samaria.

That will mark the end of the Palestinian people. What are you saying again was its beginning?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yashiko Sagamori is a New York-based Information Technology consultant.


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Old Post Feb-23-2004 16:50  Israel
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Cyrus King
Anti NeoCon Addict



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto

quote:
Originally posted by dj_ilan_yosef
Who Are the Palestinians?
Yashiko Sagamori



A rebuttal:

If you are so sure that "Palestine, the country, goes back through most of recorded history", I expect you to be able to answer a few basic questions about that country of "Palestine":

1. When was it founded and by whom?

2. What were its borders?

3. What was its capital?

4. What were its major cities?

5. What constituted the basis of its economy?

6. What was its form of government?

7. Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat?

8. Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?

9. What was the language of the country of Palestine?

10. What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine?

11. What was the name of its currency? Choose any date in history and try and find the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, British pound, Japanese yen, or Chinese yuan on that date.

12. Have the Palestinians left any artifacts behind?

13. Do you know of a library where one could find a work of Palestinian literature produced before 1967?

14. And, finally, since there is no such country today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?

If you are lamenting the "low sinking" of "once proud" nation, then please tell me, when exactly was that "nation" proud and what was it so proud of?

And here is the least sarcastic question of all: If the people you mistakenly call "Palestinians" are anything but generic Arabs collected from all over - or thrown out of - the Arab world, if they really have a genuine ethnic identity that gives them right for self-determination, why did they never try to become independent until Arabs suffered their devastating defeat by Israel in the 1967Six Day War?

I hope you avoid the temptation to trace the modern day "Palestinians" to the Biblical Philistines: substituting etymology for history wonīt work here.

The truth should be obvious to everyone who wants to know it. Arab countries have never abandoned the dream of destroying Israel; they still cherish it today. Having time and again failed to achieve their evil goal through military means, they decided to fight Israel by proxy. For that purpose, they created a terrorist organization, cynically called it "the Palestinian people" and installed it in Gaza, Judea, and Samaria. How else can you explain the refusal by Jordan and Egypt to unconditionally accept back the "West Bank" and Gaza, respectively, in the aftermath of the 1967 war?

The fact is, Arabs populating Gaza, Judea, and Samaria have much less of a claim to nationhood than the American Indian tribe that successfully emerged in Connecticut with the purpose of starting a tax-exempt casino: at least that tribe had a constructive goal that motivated them. The so-called "Palestinians" have only one motivation: the destruction of Israel. In my book that is not sufficient to consider them a "nation" -- or anything else -- except what they really are: a terrorist organization that will one day be dismantled.

In fact, there is only one way to achieve piece in the Middle East. Arab countries must acknowledge and accept their defeat in their war against Israel and, as the losing side, should pay Israel reparations for the more than 50 years of devastation they have visited upon it. The most appropriate form of such reparations would be the removal of their terrorist organization from the land of Israel and acceptance of Israelīs ancient sovereignty over Gaza, Judea, and Samaria.

That will mark the end of the Palestinian people. What are you saying again was its beginning?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yashiko Sagamori is a New York-based Information Technology consultant.


What were Israeli's before 1948?


___________________
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-MARCO V

Old Post Feb-23-2004 18:14 
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