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Originally posted by Cyrus King I can understand how many palestinians wouldnt want to return to Israel if this happened. But if they were ruled by an equivalent Arab ratio in the knesset im sure they would want a right of return.

But the reality of the situation is that it's not going to happen. It's never going to happen. The equivalent would be an Israeli leadership role in the Palestinian authority. If a bunch of Israelis were a part of Arafat's security force or had a role in passing Palestinian laws would Israelis be more comfortable with a PA state? Yes of course ... but that's not the issue. What is the key point of the study is that the right of return is not as crucial of an issue as the extremists make it out to be. Do the extremists make it such an issue for the sake of the refugees? No, the refugees have spoken. The extremists make it a key issue out of principal and because it takes peace talks completely off the table (in my opinion). Much like Arafat to a certain degree, the extremists place their concerns over the concerns of the people they claim to represent.

what the controversial survey found doesn't change anything though. It's findings are irrelevant. It's actually a good thing that most refugees don't want to come back to Israel. This is more reason to accept the Right of Return. Whatever the percentage, it still remains a right that cannot be denied to them. They could instead choose to be compensated of course. The fact is Palestinians will not let go of the right of return.

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Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization: "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

I highly disagree with the arguement that it's the extremists who are pushing for the right of return. I'll let you know that the factions such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad don't give a shit about the right of return because they have their own shit to worry about like the military occupation on their ground. Extremists have nothing to do with this. In fact, go to the nearest university and look for Palestinian students. Most of them are refugees who want to return. Are they extremist? I have friends who are refugees. In fact, most Palestinians I know are refugees, I'm one of the very few who isn't. Are they extremist? They want to go back. The survey says 10%. Is it the number that matters? Every refugee has a right to choose. This isn't a right where you take majority choice and then implement it on every refugee. Everyone has their individual choice.

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*** Sig will be edited -> see rule #5 regarding political/religious content
Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization: "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

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Originally posted by Palestinian what the controversial survey found doesn't change anything though. It's findings are irrelevant. It's actually a good thing that most refugees don't want to come back to Israel. This is more reason to accept the Right of Return. Whatever the percentage, it still remains a right that cannot be denied to them. They could instead choose to be compensated of course. The fact is Palestinians will not let go of the right of return.

The findings are irrelevant? The fact that so few desire that right is additional reasoning to pursue such a concession to a greater degree??? I'm beginning to understand why there's been no progress in the middle east. Well let's examine this situation logically ... if few refugees disire concession A in the place of concession x, y, and z it would be in the favor of the palestinian people to compromise on concession A, which they really didn't care about, in order to acheive the concessions that mattered to them the most, x, y, and z. The fact that concession A is championed by those affected the least or by those who do not represent the majority reflects poorly on the cause in general.

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I highly disagree with the arguement that it's the extremists who are pushing for the right of return. I'll let you know that the factions such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad don't give a shit about the right of return because they have their own shit to worry about like the military occupation on their ground. Extremists have nothing to do with this.

Hamas and Islamic Jihad care nothing of the issue? That's somewhat surprising since the right of return is a principle part of their platform.

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In fact, go to the nearest university and look for Palestinian students. Most of them are refugees who want to return. Are they extremist? I have friends who are refugees. In fact, most Palestinians I know are refugees, I'm one of the very few who isn't. Are they extremist? They want to go back.

I never stated that all refugees who want to go back are extremist. That would be an unscientific generalization. However, I would state that the majority of refugees do not desire the right of return as evidenced by the Palestinain poll unless that poll was scientifically flawed. It doesn't matter how many people you know who desire the right to return ... what if I knew one more palestinain than you who didn't want that right? Is that indicative of all Palestinans? Of course not, it's not a random sample.

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The survey says 10%. Is it the number that matters? Every refugee has a right to choose. This isn't a right where you take majority choice and then implement it on every refugee. Everyone has their individual choice.

The right of refugees to return to their homes is an inalienable right now? Ok, well then what of the rights of the occidental jews who were displaced from virtually all of the middle east when the conflict started? Do they all possess a right of return? What of the jews who owned land in Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, etc., do they too possess that right which are protected from government agreements? In accordance with this line of reasoning what right does a government have to make a decision for ANY of its citizens?

Like I said, everyone has a CHOICE INDIVIDUALLY. You can't negate the right of return based on majority opinion. And yes, all Jews who were kicked out or left from Arab countries also have a right to return. I never said they didn't. This is about coexistence.

If you allow me to make a prediction, I think that refugees right now have lost hope and that's why they can't imagine going back to their land. But if they are allowed to return, I think it will be an awakening for them and they will say it's too good to be true and then go back. Especially if you have a one state solution, then obviously they won't have anything to lose by going back. This is especially true if they are aware that once they go back they can actually create one state out of historic Palestine. You also have to remember that they see Jews as their mortal enemies. If things got better, they might change their views and decide to live with them. There are many factors here to consider. A statistical study doesn't tell you these things. You can't give away the right of return. There are thousands of organizations fighting to get it. The Palestinians will never let it go. This is as much reality as Israel's unwillingness to let go of the Jewish State.

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Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization: "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

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Originally posted by Palestinian ...And yes, all Jews who were kicked out or left from Arab countries also have a right to return.

Clearly they don't have the "right" of return - if you think they should, then why hasn't it ever been given to them?

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...they see Jews as their mortal enemies. If things got better, they might change their views and decide to live with them.

Confusing cause and effect here, I think... the whole Jewish/Arab conflict practically goes back to Biblical times.

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There are thousands of organizations fighting to get it.

Thousands eh? Let's see you list 100. Even 20.

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The Palestinians will never let it go. This is as much reality as Israel's unwillingness to let go of the Jewish State.

Very true. The Palestinians want an Arab state and the Israelis want a Jewish state. The difference is, the Israelis are in power right now. Not to mention that there are already 50 other Arab states which, in actual fact, are all small pieces of what "Palestine" used to be.

The "Jewish State" of Israel is a peanut in a football field of Arab states - why do you THINK they don't want to give up what little they have?

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Confusing cause and effect here, I think... the whole Jewish/Arab conflict practically goes back to Biblical times.

true true. ever read thwe story of david and goliath. what was goliath? a "philistine" are these people the descendants of palistine?
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and to the issue of coexistance, and a state governed by both jews and palistineans. this will never happen. each side is radically intent on keeping their own state. i cant even concieve that this will ever happen. but i can concieve of each side having their own states. but israel is too stubborn to let that happen

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Originally posted by Palestinian ...This is especially true if they are aware that once they go back they can actually create one state out of historic Palestine

HA!

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Originally posted by Heinz true true. ever read thwe story of david and goliath. what was goliath? a "philistine" are these people the descendants of palistine?

Please don't confuse today’s Palestinians with the biblical Philistines! Many make that error, and some even try and use it to legitimize what we today call the "Palestinians."

Here is a link the clearly displays the difference between the two:
Just Who Are the "Palestinians"?

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Originally posted by Heinz and to the issue of coexistence, and a state governed by both Jews and Palestinians. this will never happen. each side is radically intent on keeping their own state. i cant even concieve that this will ever happen. but i can concieve of each side having their own states. but israel is too stubborn to let that happen

Israel is too what? Israel has repeatedly supported plans for a sovereign Palestinian state under the condition (which of course was not met) to halt all terrorist activity and eventually dismantle the Palestinian terror infrastructure (who we all know is lead by Arafat). Arafat has repeatedly lied, played games and quite frankly is doing the same thing as Saddam Hussein used to when he was in power. ALL leaders and key members in the mid-east peace process know that the first obstacle towards peace is Arafat.

Unfortunately the overwhelming majority of the European Union and Muslim/Arab world’s citizens' hate Jews more then they wish for coexistence - one where the Jews are actually allowed to live.

Heinz, you've only been here a few weeks or so (in the political discussions forum) and I'm beginning to see your opinions shape differently... I'd say for the worse. Dig deeper not only into one side, but check them both out equally and unless you have preconceived view towards Jews/Israelis', you'll understand things more clearly in regards to the conflict affecting Israel in a deadly way.

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We don’t thrive on military acts. We do them because we have to, and thank God we are efficient.

if u can gain conclusions from all my posts in this topic and others. its that, BOTH sides are too stubborn for anything. when one side is ready for peace. the other isnt. or vice versa. arafat should be austed from power, and so should sharon. both are nothing but warriors fighting each other a warriors way.

is three months a long time?? ive been here since early november, in most forums, but the political one, ive have been getting very involved in since mid december.

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if u can gain conclusions from all my posts in this topic and others. its that, BOTH sides are too stubborn for anything. when one side is ready for peace. the other isnt. or vice versa. arafat should be austed from power, and so should sharon. both are nothing but warriors fighting each other a warriors way.
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Please don't confuse today’s Palestinians with the biblical Philistines! Many make that error, and some even try and use it to legitimize what we today call the "Palestinians."

i never said the philistines were the same as palistineans. i asked if they were...your answer is no. ill read what u got there as a link
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is three months a long time?? ive been here since early november, in most forums, but the political one, ive have been getting very involved in since mid december.

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Jews who were expelled or left from Arab countries DO have a right to return to their Arab countries. Zionist scholars continously make that claim as well. The current dictators and monarchs of the Arab world are not implementing their right to return, which is disgusting.
You might think 'well they don't want to return'. Nevertheless they have that right.

You're too pessimistic about coexistence. Before the emergence of Zionism, Jews were living in Palestine with Muslims and Christians. Addressing the Anglo-American Commission on Palestine in 1946, Chaim Weizmann, head of the World Zionist Organization and first president of Israel stated: "I would not like to do any injustice. The Muslim world had treated the Jews with considerable tolerance. The Ottoman Empire (of which the Arabs were a large part) received the Jews with open arms when they were driven out of Spain and Europe and the Jews should never forget that." Claiming that they cannot coexist by saying that the Jewish/Arab conflict goes back to Biblical Times isn't very informed.

50 Arab states? 22 or 23 but not 50.

Illan, Palestinians are the descendants of the Philistines and the Arabs. The Islamic invasion of Palestine in the 7th century brought the Arabs into the land where they mixed with the Caananites and all the other tribes. Especially when you think about the Christians of Palestine. They didn't come from the Arab world because they weren't part of the Islamic invasion. They were there from before and then mixed with the Arabs when the Arabs arrived. That's why they're called the "Living Stones". They witnessed Jesus and his ministry and converted to Christianity.

Dismantling Palestinian terror infrastructure requires the dismantlement of the Israeli terror infrastructure i.e. IDF operations and behaviour. Israel has also never supported a SOVEREIGN Palestinian state. When you want to give someone a state you have to ask 'what kind of state?' that's where the problem with the peace process lies. None of the states negotiated were ever sovereign.

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*** Sig will be edited -> see rule #5 regarding political/religious content
Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization: "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."