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Originally posted by Massive84 there are terrorist who are dumb=bin laden crew.

The ones mind you that Bush should have kept his focus on instead of going into Iraq in the first place.

___________________
Trance = Heart, Mind, Body and Soul all in 1

Current fav. Global Experience = Madras

i came in here thinking this might be a thread about fundamentalistic dualisms, and i get this shit :/

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Originally posted by tathi i came in here thinking this might be a thread about fundamentalistic dualisms, and i get this shit :/

I'm only reading this thread now in hopes of a Polish string of cuss words unlike anything I've ever read.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Want to see evil???? Look at what your terrorist government has done to this poor woman. Stick it up your ass fuzzy http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/...tory/html/1.stm

Her country was involved in a war. I'm sorry to hear about her loss, but stuff like that happens in war (a lot less with the way the US wages war these days also). The American army tries as hard as possible to avoid civillian casualties, but in war, people die.

Now, lets look at who's responsible, shall we...

Her and her family kept an evil regime in power, just as the Germans were responsible for the Nazi's coming to power and staying in power. Likewise the Japanese. Her innocents is shattered by the fact that she is part of a community that did nothing to stop her own evil government.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Besides, this forum is not an english language only, it's a multilingual forum with subforums like french, german, etc. I agree it's best to use english, as it is a language most of us speak here, but I have a feeling that most people here do know at least some french as well, so it's not like nobody understands the guy. Btw, isn't Swamper half-portugese or something?

As I stated before, It was stated before by moderators (I believe WickedNeo AND Swamper) that this forum is English ONLY. It's not my policy, but if this is a multilanguage forum then I will leave since I only understand English and Spanish. There's a reason that this isn't trance.nu.

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Originally posted by FuzzyGreen Her and her family kept an evil regime in power, just as the Germans were responsible for the Nazi's coming to power and staying in power. Likewise the Japanese. Her innocents is shattered by the fact that she is part of a community that did nothing to stop her own evil government.

If an arab was to write
"Her and her family kept an evil regime in power. Her innocents is shattered by the fact that she is part of a community that did nothing to stop her own evil government." of someone who lost their loved ones on 911 - how would you feel?
Unlike the Iraqi-woman, the US-citizens have elected their governments.

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Originally posted by trancaholic If an arab was to write "Her and her family kept an evil regime in power. Her innocents is shattered by the fact that she is part of a community that did nothing to stop her own evil government." of someone who lost their loved ones on 911 - how would you feel? Unlike the Iraqi-woman, the US-citizens have elected their governments.

I knew someone would use that argument, but it's different, my government hasn't tried to take over any other countries, in fact all we do is spend out tax money on supporting other countries. My government is not inherrently evil, yes there is still some corruption, but for the most part the US government is looking out for the good of "peacefull" people.

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Originally posted by FuzzyGreen As I stated before, It was stated before by moderators (I believe WickedNeo AND Swamper) that this forum is English ONLY. It's not my policy, but if this is a multilanguage forum then I will leave since I only understand English and Spanish. There's a reason that this isn't trance.nu.

Right...better start packing your suitcase soon.
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/....php?forumid=58
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/....php?forumid=63

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I knew someone would use that argument, but it's different, my government hasn't tried to take over any other countries,

Iraq?

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in fact all we do is spend out tax money on supporting other countries.

Yes, especially those kind and benevolent regimes, like Pinnochet, Talibans, Saudi Arabia royal family, Iranian islamists...

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My government is not inherrently evil, yes there is still some corruption, but for the most part the US government is looking out for the good of "peacefull" people.

Like examples above, eh?

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1+1=10

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Originally posted by FuzzyGreen I knew someone would use that argument, but it's different, my government hasn't tried to take over any other countries, in fact all we do is spend out tax money on supporting other countries. My government is not inherrently evil, yes there is still some corruption, but for the most part the US government is looking out for the good of "peacefull" people.

Refuting the basis of your argument:
I'm not good at history, but how about : Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Vietnam, etc. Did the people in these countries ask for your opinion on who they should be governed by? You may say that you haven't tried to take over these countries - well, you have assisted minorities in these countries. Helping them to instate a US-friendly government.

Refuting the applicability of your argument:
Iraq hasn't tried to take over any countries ever since Kuwait. And they have been at their best behaviour (invasion wise) ever since.

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Originally posted by FuzzyGreen Her country was involved in a war. I'm sorry to hear about her loss, but stuff like that happens in war (a lot less with the way the US wages war these days also). The American army tries as hard as possible to avoid civillian casualties, but in war, people die. Now, lets look at who's responsible, shall we... Her and her family kept an evil regime in power, just as the Germans were responsible for the Nazi's coming to power and staying in power. Likewise the Japanese. Her innocents is shattered by the fact that she is part of a community that did nothing to stop her own evil government.

I cant beleive how idiotic this statement is.

First off.. she wasnt involved in this war, no one in Iraq was involved in this war. It was your death squad of a government that VOLUNTARILY and FORCEFULLY went to war with her country.

Who is responsivble??? You are blaming the murder of her family becuase she did nothing to oust the baath party???? People in iraq lived in fear if they had these such words. Saddam came into power BY FORCE. The people had nothing to do with it.

Should the people who want to get rid of the Bush administration be responisible if a nation went to war on your homeland.

Until you see your sky scrapers being blown up, neighborhoods on fire, and people shot by a miliatry IN YOUR nation, you wouldnt know the meaning of "responsibility" unitl it raped you in that yankee ass.

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

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Originally posted by FuzzyGreen I knew someone would use that argument, but it's different, my government hasn't tried to take over any other countries, in fact all we do is spend out tax money on supporting other countries. My government is not inherrently evil, yes there is still some corruption, but for the most part the US government is looking out for the good of "peacefull" people.

dude..the goverment forced itself on a country..do u ever ask urself if anybody asked for ur help..did any iraqi cries " oh mighty US please help us"..no the goverment just imposed...you have to remember that ARABS r pretty proud people..they would rather have thier old life back then seein forigners with guns walking through thier streets..

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I cant beleive how idiotic this statement is. First off.. she wasnt involved in this war, no one in Iraq was involved in this war. It was your death squad of a government that VOLUNTARILY and FORCEFULLY went to war with her country. Who is responsible??? You are blaming the murder of her family becuase she did nothing to oust the baath party???? People in iraq lived in fear if they had these such words. Saddam came into power BY FORCE. The people had nothing to do with it. Should the people who want to get rid of the Bush administration be responisible if a nation went to war on your homeland. Until you see your sky scrapers being blown up, neighborhoods on fire, and people shot by a miliatry IN YOUR nation, you wouldnt know the meaning of "responsibility" unitl it raped you in that yankee ass.

Fuzzy man, seriously, your arguments are a joke and you're making a laughing stock out of yourself Your logic is COMPLETELY fallacious. Cyrus nailed you on pretty much every point.

However, you do bring up an interesting point, although COMPLETELY misapplied in the case of Iraq.
The point is: Should citizens of a specific DEMOCRATIC country be held accountable for acts (presumably negative) that their governments perpetrate against other nations, people...(obviously if the nation is NOT democratic, the point is moot, FUZZY)

My two cents, with two view points.

Yes they should be held accountable. These countries are democracies. By definition, they elect their leaders, and thus, should be (totally/partially) responsable for the acts perpetrated by their leaders since they put them there in the first place. Note that in cases like the US with it's electoral college system, this point becomes somewhat debatable but let's let it slide for now.

No they should not be held accountable. Although citizens in democratic countries do INDEED elect their leaders, not EVERY citizen elects that specific leader. A citizen could have voted for another leader, who then proceeded to lose the elections. Thus, when their governments perpetrate acts of "state terrorism", for instance, and "terrorists" attack this state back by killing civilians by using suicide bombs against them, which, ipso facto, do NOT discriminate against people who voted for or against a particular leader, the suicide bombers are at fault.

Furthermore, if people elect these leaders to power at time t = x, and then event A that "rocks" that nation occurs at time t = x + 1 and leads the leaders of that nation to take a course of action that the constituents as a whole don't agree with and COULD NOT have predicted, and voice their disapproval by demonstrations and the like, then the people should not be held accountable, and the suicide bombers are at fault.

Only thoughts here. I personally sway towards the second view point, although that is most certainly not set in stone, and it would be interesting to hear everyone's view points on this topic

EDIT:/ Some ugly spelling mistakes

Last edited by Epicurus on Apr-07-2004 at 18:20