quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King If there was no revenge to take, these organizations wouldnt be formed.

That's a load of dung. Explain how the conflict in Ireland is limited to Ireland and England, yet the Israeli-Arab conflict shows no boundaries? You don't see IRA supporters in N. America bombing Protestant churches over here in protest of British occupation, do you? Yet, why is 'socially acceptible' for every Arab nation to join arms against every Jew in the world? Now it's no longer aimed at the Jews, but any ally of Israel or the US.

When Israel was created, explain why 7 surrounding Arab nations attacked it on it's 1st day of existence? Did Israel take land from each and every one of those countries? Had they done any atrocities to any Palesinian citizen? No. So why did they all feel it was their duty? Bottom line: they hate the Jews. 'Hey, no matter that your entire race was nearly wiped out during the Holocaust, and most of you are straight off the boat from one of those places, but we're all gonna attack you now. Aside from the fact that Palestine was a British mandate prior to that, we're gonna attack you Jews instead. Tough shit.'

Why are Jewish cemetaries defaced & Jewish schools firebombed outside Israel's borders? A Jew whose never been to Israel could be attacked on the street simply for being Jewish is commonplace in some countries. The hatred for the Jews goes FAAAAAR deeper than the creation of the state of Israel, my friend. Jews lived in Arab lands and were persecuted plenty, simply for being Jewish. Yet, despite all the negative examples we see on the news every day of these 'Middle Eastern terrorists', you don't see many cases of Mosques being defaced, etc... Sure, initially after 9/11, there were a few idiots in the US who took it upon themselves to become vigilantes and in 1 intance, killed a Sikh, simply cuz he was such a moron he didn't even know the difference, but thankfully that isn't the norm.

Ironic, aint it?


As for extremist groups, they should not be supported, even if you believe in their most element basic 'cause'. When Rabbi Meir Kahane (who fronted the JDL, the Jewish version of far-right extremists) was assasinated, I couldn't have been happier. He might as well have been in Nazi regalia, he hated Arab's so much... all Arabs, and hatred will get you nowhere.

As for these extremist groups' tactics... don't even get me started. In contrast to the Holocaust: There was an underground Jewish resistance to the Nazi powers. Sure they armed themselves, but they ONLY attacked those in Nazi uniform. You NEVER heard of a Jewish resistance fighter who started spraying bullets into a crowded shopping area killing civilians in 1943 Germany, did you? They went for those directly responsible- the army. I don't care HOW frustrated you are- you do not target civilians.

Only now is the IRA (who are vigilante terrorists) finally realizing that they need to put down their arms and bombs and come to the political table. That is the only way you will be taken seriously, not by blowing up buildings with civilians in them. Someone should take note.

Hatred for the State of Israel is the new socially accepted anti-semitism. Most people don't even realize they're doing it.

___________________
"When I die, I want to be buried under the dancefloor"- Frankie Madgenta

Last edited by tatgirl on Apr-20-2004 at 11:46

quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer you are absolutely right on that,Death is the last thing that they are afraid of,so I dont killing them wont stop anything but making more hatered toward Isreal,but as you mentioned already westerners simply dont understand this idealogy,they just call everyone terrorist.

If they aren't afraid of death, and seem to willingly embrace it, then why don't they just make this all the quicker and line up so Israel can execute the lot of them. Then logic would dictate there would be peace in Israel afterwards.

___________________
www.platinumworld.ca

quote:

Originally posted by tatgirl That's a load of dung. Explain how the conflict in Ireland is limited to Ireland and England, yet the Israeli-Arab conflict shows no boundaries? You don't see IRA supporters in N. America bombing Protestant churches over here in protest of British occupation, do you? Yet, why is 'socially acceptible' for every Arab nation to join arms against every Jew in the world? Now it's no longer aimed at the Jews, but any ally of Israel or the US. When Israel was created, explain why 7 surrounding Arab nations attacked it on it's 1st day of existence? Did Israel take land from each and every one of those countries? Had they done any atrocities to any Palesinian citizen? No. So why did they all feel it was their duty? Bottom line: they hate the Jews. 'Hey, no matter that your entire race was nearly wiped out during the Holocaust, and most of you are straight off the boat from one of those places, but we're all gonna attack you now. Aside from the fact that Palestine was a British mandate prior to that, we're gonna attack you Jews instead. Tough shit.' Why are Jewish cemetaries defaced & Jewish schools firebombed outside Israel's borders? A Jew whose never been to Israel could be attacked on the street simply for being Jewish is commonplace in some countries. The hatred for the Jews goes FAAAAAR deeper than the creation of the state of Israel, my friend. Jews lived in Arab lands and were persecuted plenty, simply for being Jewish. Yet, despite all the negative examples we see on the news every day of these 'Middle Eastern terrorists', you don't see many cases of Mosques being defaced, etc... Sure, initially after 9/11, there were a few idiots in the US who took it upon themselves to become vigilantes and in 1 intance, killed a Sikh, simply cuz he was such a moron he didn't even know the difference, but thankfully that isn't the norm. Ironic, aint it? As for extremist groups, they should not be supported, even if you believe in their most element basic 'cause'. When Rabbi Meir Kahane (who fronted the JDL, the Jewish version of far-right extremists) was assasinated, I couldn't have been happier. He might as well have been in Nazi regalia, he hated Arab's so much... all Arabs, and hatred will get you nowhere. As for these extremist groups' tactics... don't even get me started. In contrast to the Holocaust: There was an underground Jewish resistance to the Nazi powers. Sure they armed themselves, but they ONLY attacked those in Nazi uniform. You NEVER heard of a Jewish resistance fighter who started spraying bullets into a crowded shopping area killing civilians in 1943 Germany, did you? They went for those directly responsible- the army. I don't care HOW frustrated you are- you do not target civilians. Only now is the IRA (who are vigilante terrorists) finally realizing that they need to put down their arms and bombs and come to the political table. That is the only way you will be taken seriously, not by blowing up buildings with civilians in them. Someone should take note. Hatred for the State of Israel is the new socially accepted anti-semitism. Most people don't even realize they're doing it.

Amen to all that. To top it off the majority of these terrorist organizations exist for two reasons. The supremacy of the muslim/islaamic people and as an easy political tool for Arab leaders to bring attention away from the fact that the reason that the majority of middle easterners feel opressed is because their rulers build palaces instead of hospitals, schools and community centers.

Even according to the Muslim religion Jews and Christians are both "people of the book" and should be tolerated/accepted in society. It's funny humanity can twist even those things it considers to be above it to further its own goals.

But if history repeats itself, then just like the Greeks, Romans, Goths' etc... The Arab peoples will cease to hold any sway (or even exist in this world) in a few thousand years and the Jews will still be around, just as persecuted (albeit by someone else) as ever.

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www.platinumworld.ca

quote:

Originally posted by tatgirl Hatred for the State of Israel is the new socially accepted anti-semitism. Most people don't even realize they're doing it.

Nathalie, I love you, but I have to disagree with you on a few points, though you do have good points too.

First, I agree that there is probably a certain amount of Jewish hatred around the world that one might argue may even be independent of people’s feelings towards the state of Israel. But I don’t agree that this conflict being International in its importance is because of that. It’s International because Israel has been supported by Western countries, especially the US, for a long time in all their actions, even if those actions have been severe and totally unfair against the Palestinians or their neighbors. I don’t agree that my being upset with the Government of Israel (not the state) means I’m anti-semitic. God, you for one should know that I’m not anti-anything.

I should also point out that the conflict is made international by Jewish supporters around the world at times too. For instance, you can’t deny that the Canadian Jewish congress has often been a strong supporter of Israel, something that would of course tick some ignorant people off into thinking they’re justified to go deface someone’s front door. Ignorance is a dangerous thing. I do agree that for some people, Israel’s actions are probably used as an excuse to fuel hatred against Jewish people. It’s not the first time in history when people use a political situation for their own motives.

You also make a good point about Jewish resistance did not kill civilians in Nazi Germany. Again, killing of civilians is wrong period. Whether it’s those dying in suicide bombs, or 3000 people dying in New York, regardless of all the nasty things that the US has done and continues to do around the world. But violence of any form has to be dealt with at the source. In Canada, if we do so by trying to have a good social network to help reduce the causes of people becoming criminals in the first place. In Israel, the best way would be to take any reason for such violent acts away, as people that have been oppressed for so long could not possibly sit there calmly and have a rational discussion like ours.

One last thing Nat, I wouldn't be happy for assassination of anyone, not even Rabbi Meir Kahane. I truly believe no violence can ever be a solution to anything meaningful. That's why I don't support the assassination of the Hamas leaders either. It's just going to fuel more hatred rather than stemming the problem at its source. Just like America's actions in the world since 9/11 are just more likely to lead to even more terrorism, rather than less.

By the way, if anyone is assuming that my being against Israel’s actions is because of my Iranian (not Arab) background, you’re plain wrong. I’m as non_Iranian in many of my views as it gets. My background helps me know a little about the area, that’s all. I don’t assume that the people arguing pro Israel here are Jewish, or that Nat’s argument is because she’s Jewish. I think we’re all beyond thinking that way here.

I just want to make clear that I'm not suggesting that any of my friends that have such views are anti-semitic, because if you/ they were, we wouldn't be friends.

But just to clarify things- the existence of the Canadian Jewish Congress should not be used as a scapegoat as to why anti-semetic acts occur here. No matter where you go, there is a similar Jewish organization in every country where there are Jews. To think that they are not gonna support the state of Israel is ridiculous. But do u honestly think that these maniacs that commit these crimes here are doing it because there is a CJC? Not likely. On the flip side, most everyone knows that nearly every terrorist is a Muslim, yet you don't see anyone here targeting mosques or Arabs on a regular basis.

___________________
"When I die, I want to be buried under the dancefloor"- Frankie Madgenta

"Hatred for the State of Israel is the new socially accepted anti-semitism. Most people don't even realize they're doing it. "

That is the BIGGGEST load of BS i have heard in a long time, with all due respect. Israel is an official state and is therefore open TO ALL CRTITISM BY ANYONE. Exposing Israel is not Anti-Semitic.

No it isn't. I'm not saying anyone who has a dissenting opinion of Israel is commiting anti-semitism. We are all free to disagree. I'm talking about blatant media bias, and the spill-off of anti-semitic acts that occur in foreign land against Jews, simply because they hate Israel that much.

___________________
"When I die, I want to be buried under the dancefloor"- Frankie Madgenta

quote:

Originally posted by tatgirl That's a load of dung. Explain how the conflict in Ireland is limited to Ireland and England, yet the Israeli-Arab conflict shows no boundaries? You don't see IRA supporters in N. America bombing Protestant churches over here in protest of British occupation, do you? Yet, why is 'socially acceptible' for every Arab nation to join arms against every Jew in the world? Now it's no longer aimed at the Jews, but any ally of Israel or the US.p

Im not to familiar with the IRA and its mandates, but with respect to the arab/jew conflict.. its very complex, deep rooted and extremely violent. Unfortunately, I think alot of this has to do with the misinterpretation of Islam by fundementalist extremists. Not only is palestine seen as the land of the palestinians by almost all of the arab world, but it also sees it as a part of the ISLAMIC world. Arab muslims simply cannot stand the fact that a jewish homeland was formed right dab in the center of an arab/muslim region. Obviously there will be tensions, and the whole region will be affected by the socio-political baggage it carries.

quote:

When Israel was created, explain why 7 surrounding Arab nations attacked it on it's 1st day of existence? Did Israel take land from each and every one of those countries? Had they done any atrocities to any Palesinian citizen? No. So why did they all feel it was their duty? Bottom line: they hate the Jews. 'Hey, no matter that your entire race was nearly wiped out during the Holocaust, and most of you are straight off the boat from one of those places, but we're all gonna attack you now. Aside from the fact that Palestine was a British mandate prior to that, we're gonna attack you Jews instead. Tough shit.'

They infact did did do alot of horrific things to the indiginous population at the time. If you recall, 700,000 arabs were murdered, driven out, or forced out through fear of death that the zionists put forth in the months leading up to ISraels day of independence.

The nature of Israel's birth is something that should never be advocated or seen as good...it was a violent, forceful, unjust, and murderous way to make a country solely for a jewish population.

What would you have done if an armed zionist from eastern europe kicked open your door and shot your family then told you he would do the same to you if you didnt move out of "HIS" house??? That is but one of many thousands of accounts.

Arabs were pissed and wanted to stop this from happening...so they went to war.

quote:

Why are Jewish cemetaries defaced & Jewish schools firebombed outside Israel's borders? A Jew whose never been to Israel could be attacked on the street simply for being Jewish is commonplace in some countries. The hatred for the Jews goes FAAAAAR deeper than the creation of the state of Israel, my friend. Jews lived in Arab lands and were persecuted plenty, simply for being Jewish. Yet, despite all the negative examples we see on the news every day of these 'Middle Eastern terrorists', you don't see many cases of Mosques being defaced, etc... Sure, initially after 9/11, there were a few idiots in the US who took it upon themselves to become vigilantes and in 1 intance, killed a Sikh, simply cuz he was such a moron he didn't even know the difference, but thankfully that isn't the norm. Ironic, aint it?

Unfortunately, there are many many morons out there filled with hate that just want to cause shit. But with respect to the jews being persecuted long before is correct. However, in the palestine region, before the threat of zionism during the 18th/19th century and prior... jews, arabs, muslims all lived in relative peace. Man of them farmers, living their peasant lives.

quote:

As for extremist groups, they should not be supported, even if you believe in their most element basic 'cause'. When Rabbi Meir Kahane (who fronted the JDL, the Jewish version of far-right extremists) was assasinated, I couldn't have been happier. He might as well have been in Nazi regalia, he hated Arab's so much... all Arabs, and hatred will get you nowhere.

I dont beleive in any cause that kills innocent civilians. Hamas, Sharons abusive and aggressive policies, America's "liberating" crusades, Al-qaeda's Jihad... all of these are to be stopped. All of these leaders are Extremists... that is the problem. Also... they are men, and men ususally resort to violence, thats why i think women should lead

quote:

As for these extremist groups' tactics... don't even get me started. In contrast to the Holocaust: There was an underground Jewish resistance to the Nazi powers. Sure they armed themselves, but they ONLY attacked those in Nazi uniform. You NEVER heard of a Jewish resistance fighter who started spraying bullets into a crowded shopping area killing civilians in 1943 Germany, did you? They went for those directly responsible- the army. I don't care HOW frustrated you are- you do not target civilians.

Its easy to type that out on a computer. Many fail to mention the environment, experiences, humiliation, vulnerability, corrupt influence, indoctrination, and desensitization that affect the palestinian populace. They are not just "frustrated".. its more complex than that. Im not trying to justify these killings by describing to you why they committ them, im just trying to bring to light how that region and the many factors that come into play bring about these types of results, namely suicide bombing.

quote:

Only now is the IRA (who are vigilante terrorists) finally realizing that they need to put down their arms and bombs and come to the political table. That is the only way you will be taken seriously, not by blowing up buildings with civilians in them. Someone should take note. Hatred for the State of Israel is the new socially accepted anti-semitism. Most people don't even realize they're doing it.

I wish the same could be said about both sides in the israeli/pal conflict. The only way that would happen is if everyone put their weapons down..espescially israel with its fighter jets, tanks, and 5th strongest military.

By the way, criticizing israel isnt anti-semtic... even hating it. I hate the american government.. doesnt mean i hate the people.

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

(Half) My family is from Morocco, so they've lived side by side in an Arab land. In comparison to other Arab countries, yes they had it better there being a Jew (and Morocco still has 5,000 Jews still living there, the largest population of all the Arab nations), but did they feel 'safe' there? Not really. Sit down with any of my relatives and they'll be happy to share the stories of how their children were beaten by teachers and police for being Jewish, or not knowing how to speak Arabic, or the kidnappings of Jewish women that Arab men desired as wives, never to be heard from again. The stories are endless. If things were so 'great', why did they all leave?

As for the rest.... to be continued. It's late.

___________________
"When I die, I want to be buried under the dancefloor"- Frankie Madgenta

Preach on Cyrus please... i have no need to type

Perhaps it is unfortunate, but I do not share a humanitarian view of such situations persay. I cannot accept that one's upbringing and schooling can justify an act. Each person on this planet must be responsible and held accountable for any act they commit. Be it suicide bombings or stealing cheetos from the convenience store. There is no excuse for either, and if you cannot accept and live in the world that exists today, then you should not be allowed to interact in society. No group other than terrorist organizations has ever targeted civilian areas specifically or intentionally. There can be no sympathy for anyone who believes that strapping a bomb to themselves is a better idea than bringing a logical and non semitic argument to "the table" as it were. I am sickened and saddened by all those who can support such heinous acts without realizing that they have no purpose other than to spread fear and dissention across all societies as a whole. If you can't exist with the rest of the world, then perhaps you should not exist at all!?

___________________
www.platinumworld.ca

quote:

Originally posted by PartyHarlequin Perhaps it is unfortunate, but I do not share a humanitarian view of such situations persay. I cannot accept that one's upbringing and schooling can justify an act. Each person on this planet must be responsible and held accountable for any act they commit. Be it suicide bombings or stealing cheetos from the convenience store. There is no excuse for either, and if you cannot accept and live in the world that exists today, then you should not be allowed to interact in society. No group other than terrorist organizations has ever targeted civilian areas specifically or intentionally. There can be no sympathy for anyone who believes that strapping a bomb to themselves is a better idea than bringing a logical and non semitic argument to "the table" as it were. I am sickened and saddened by all those who can support such heinous acts without realizing that they have no purpose other than to spread fear and dissention across all societies as a whole. If you can't exist with the rest of the world, then perhaps you should not exist at all!?

Do not judge a man until you have walked in his shoes. Enough said.