quote:

Originally posted by mizzuno Here try this on for size, Mr Hitchens is a card carrying liberal, he writes for Vanity Fair and has written an article based upon facts, not little exerpts from blatently biased organizations. Mr Hitchens is a scholar not a comedian or filmaker, and while i am not a great fan of his (having such a liberal viewpoint), he at least articulates his point and relies on facts not heresay or in the case of Moore, blatant lies. So do yourself a favor and read some facts, stop looking for what you want to hear. Again this is not coming from a conservative hack. He has written many columns dissing Bush and other right wingers, but he has the credulty to expose lies on both sides of the table. So expand your mind and read this: http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/ Mizzuno

Hey man regardless of political parties, it's always great to read things from someone who presents facts and not half-truths. The TRUTH of the matter is that our government, whether it be run by democrats or republicans, has a very different agenda than that of the general public. I sent this article to some of my "liberal" and democratic friends and they found it very interesting...

as you told DAVEsz...thanks to the internet it's all too easy to find editorials or articles on stuff that "we want to hear". We hardly, however, are able to hear from people who INTELLIGENTlY look at BOTH sides of the issue and aren't afraid to express their opinions....THANKS!

Can all that is presented in the movie be taken as truth and fact?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5251769/site/newsweek/
According to this article in Newsweek, there are some inconsistencies with what the 9/11 Commission has found and reported, and other items on the record

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Last edited by partyhopper on Jun-23-2004 at 07:05

jc, it was just a post about a damn movie, how the f^$& did it turn into this?!

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Well, i'm not quite sure what you mean by "turn into this", it's actually one of the more civil and informative threads I have seen.

Mizzz

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Originally posted by LuNaSeA jc, it was just a post about a damn movie, how the f^$& did it turn into this?!

This post should actually be in the political section. But other than that it is a very good informative one. Thanks for the info guys.

BTW the Carlyle Group had George Bush Sr as an advisor until as recent as 2003.

quote:

from carlyle themselves: 8. Is former President George H.W. Bush affiliated with The Carlyle Group? No. Former President Bush was at one time the Senior Advisor to the Carlyle Asia Advisory Board but retired from that position in October 2003. He holds no other positions at Carlyle. and http://www.thecarlylegroup.com/eng/geo/news-2792.html The Carlyle Group to Buy Verizon Hawaii for $1.65 billion - New Services, Jobs, and Capital Investment Expected with Transition to Locally Managed Company

And last thing, if you do some name searching of some of the members of this group, some will have ties to telecommunications companies.

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quote:

Originally posted by MezzicanTrancEr The TRUTH of the matter is that our government, whether it be run by democrats or republicans, has a very different agenda than that of the general public. I sent this article to some of my "liberal" and democratic friends and they found it very interesting...

True.

The corporations have, to a large degree, taken over the machinery of both major political parties.


With the Republican Party, the melding of corporation and state began in the early 1900s, forcing Teddy Roosevelt to leave and form his own 'Bull Moose' Progressive Party.

The corporations have also recently taken hold of the machinery of the Democratic Party through their conduit the DLC.

Bill Clinton actually did more to dismantle FDR's New Deal than Reagan did, all the while herding the poor and African Americans into the voting booth.

Nixon and Eisenhower were far more progressive/liberal than Bill (especially Nixon).

The last time we were at this point in terms of monopolies running the government was in the 1920s and 30s.

Ask any one of your older relatives who lived through the Depression what that was like.



Speaking of not representing the public at large:





When taxes are cut for billionaires, the overall tax burden shifts onto the backs of working people.



I don't have a great deal of hope about Sen. Kerry on either the Iraq war or controlling the power of monopolies, but since he prosecuted Iran/Contra and the BCCI scandal, at least he doesn't seem to be a crook...


http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB113/

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1992_rpt/bcci/

Last edited by DaveSZ on Jun-25-2004 at 07:54

I belong to either party and don't like either to be honest with you. But anyone who makes movies based on stretched/skewed facts or simply fabricates information is a CON. He did the same with Colombine, combining pieces of interviews from interviews that happened BEFORE Columbine. Editing is a powerful tool and you can take anything and make it into whatever you want. And the fact that the media is swallowing it whole (except for the few who actually know what a fraud Michael Moore is) is because the media is mostly liberal and would do anything (truth OR lies) to make their case. Most Democrats know that the movie is a bunch of twisted around information to make the Reps look bad but don't care because in politics, the ends justify the means. You couldn't drag me to see the movie. I don't like Bush much but twisted propoganda for people who swallow it whole and accept it for truth pisses me off even more.

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quote:

Originally posted by DaveSZ True. The corporations have, to a large degree, taken over the machinery of both major political parties. With the Republican Party, the melding of corporation and state began in the early 1900s, forcing Teddy Roosevelt to leave and form his own 'Bull Moose' Progressive Party. The corporations have also recently taken hold of the machinery of the Democratic Party through their conduit the DLC. Bill Clinton actually did more to dismantle FDR's New Deal than Reagan did, all the while herding the poor and African Americans into the voting booth. Nixon and Eisenhower were far more progressive/liberal than Bill (especially Nixon). The last time we were at this point in terms of monopolies running the government was in the 1920s and 30s. Ask any one of your older relatives who lived through the Depression what that was like. Speaking of not representing the public at large: When taxes are cut for billionaires, the overall tax burden shifts onto the backs of working people.

Billionaires??, what are you talking about, lets start presenting facts here, there is not a billionaire tax bracket, the highest tax bracket starts at 80,000, hardly "rich", then you must take into account where you live in the country, for example I live in NY where 80k gets you no where , in fact 150k is just enough to make it without living paycheck to paycheck, so lets get something straight, when we talk about "the rich" its anyone making over 80k. There aren't many billionaires in the world let alone the US, the highest concentration is actually in Moscow. And you seem to have this aversion to corporations, aren't these the same corporations that employ the citizens of the US, I think you're in a catch 22 with that arguement, in my opinion its more a symbiosis. That graph is largely irrelevant, as the top 50% of wage earners pay almost 97% of the taxes, I think thats a bit disparate, for most socialists or quasi socialists, redistribution of wealth is the norm, I believe we tried that experiment over 40 years and it didn't work out so well. Please keep the facts coming...


Mizzuno

quote:

Originally posted by DaveSZ The corporations have, to a large degree, taken over the machinery of both major political parties.

Sounds like communist talk to me. "Blame the corporations" is always going to be the motto for the misinformed that reads too much into the same corporate media the blame is part of.

To quote a part of the communist manifesto:

quote:

...The immediate aim of the Communists is the same as that of all other proletarian parties: Formation of the proletariat into a class, overthrow of the bourgeois supremacy, conquest of political power by the proletariat... ...In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property...

That private property would be your wages for example. If I am a farmer and I paid you 20 apples out of every 100 picked, that 20 apples would be your property wouldn't it? So then why blame the corporations?

Communism is still capitalism if communism controls profits.

quote:

Originally posted by Mysteriousss I belong to either party and don't like either to be honest with you. But anyone who makes movies based on stretched/skewed facts or simply fabricates information is a CON. He did the same with Colombine, combining pieces of interviews from interviews that happened BEFORE Columbine. Editing is a powerful tool and you can take anything and make it into whatever you want. And the fact that the media is swallowing it whole (except for the few who actually know what a fraud Michael Moore is) is because the media is mostly liberal and would do anything (truth OR lies) to make their case. Most Democrats know that the movie is a bunch of twisted around information to make the Reps look bad but don't care because in politics, the ends justify the means. You couldn't drag me to see the movie. I don't like Bush much but twisted propoganda for people who swallow it whole and accept it for truth pisses me off even more.

Well said. Like I said before this Stupid White Man is a crock. He is just a distraction from the truth.

Quote from the Declaration of Independence (you all know this one it's why we Americans all celebrate it, but forget to read it once in a while):

quote:

...We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness...

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Last edited by ogvh5150 on Jun-25-2004 at 14:00

I'm going to see the movie because i think it looks good, and if it keeps bush from getting re-elected, it's promoting MY agenda.

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Originally posted by Skaya I'm going to see the movie because i think it looks good, and if it keeps bush from getting re-elected, it's promoting MY agenda.

At least you admit that you're a partisan, good luck with your agenda, just keep in mind that 280 million other people live in this country that may not agree with "your" agenda.

Mizzuno

1st movie on my list to go see

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