The fact is the US can't be everywhere at once in Iraq. When people want to stage an uprising it will occur regardless of the force you have. It happens in Afghanistan(less publicized) and it could even happen here in this country. Remember the DC sniper a couple years back? Two people couldn't be found by basically the entire country mobilized to find these people including every law enforcement group. In fact if they weren't so dumb with their demands they would have gone on for months possibly.

The fact is, it is a big country, they don't like Americans and it isn't going to stop until we are gone regardless if we are helping them or not. For some reason or other they don't see the help, they don't see they they have more power now, have more newspapers, tv stations, goods, freedom in general, etc etc.

They blame Americans for security when a suicide bomber blows up their children yet when we provide security they don't like seeing our forces around and they help those same bombers to attack our forces. They complain about having power and water yet they refuse to tell their own people to stop blowing up pipelines and transformers. We would like to think that the Iraqi forces would help but in fact many times they defect to the other side, use the uniforms to give terrorists easy access, they provide intelligence, and often aren't working for the good of their own people.

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quote:

Originally posted by NYCTrancefan No offense Cyrus and Yoepus.

Oh, STFU

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After being oppressed for decades it is hard to get used to fact that "youre free". its not something you can just learn over a period of weeks, or months; granted that most westerners were born with it, its hard for us to see.

The problem with matters such as these is that most of the media, if not all, is controlled by the American Government. Now think of this for a moment. A government, elected to govern a country of millions, takes part in action that if the citizens of the country knew, they would revolt. Now, also take into consideration that the media makes up for the majority of the information that is delt to the American population. Is it not possible for the government to manipulate any historical records, and only feed you what THEY want you to know? This seems very possible.

Some of you claim that the American government wishes to liberate the country of Iraq. Now tell me this...do you really think someone who can order cities, full of innocent people like us, to be bombed really cares about 'liberating' the people. You tell me, how can a country be liberated through the mass killing of innocent civilians. You tell me this is part of war? Can you imagine a country that ordered for cities of the U.S. to be bombed, because they felt that the country was run under a dictatorship and that the people needed to be liberated. You tell me, how will you see this as. Watching all your friends and families being blown to pieces, right infront of your eyes. Now imagine that you are unfortunate enough to survive this. Tell me what you would do. Taking into consideration the fustration, hate, and anger implanted into the minds of Americans, it would be a lot worse.
Of course, I am in no way excusing these actions. But I find the stupidity and ignorance of most Americans quite ammusing. The fact that they support their government in doing these things to other countries, but the moment someone else repeats the actions of the American government, it is all-of-a-sudden seen as 'terrorism'.

So tell me now, who is the real terrorist here. The one that uses his power and status to get away with the mass murdering of innocent people because of greed for money and world control? OR the one that fights for their country against this force who shows themselves in their country?

___________________
.: Greatest Trance Tracks :.
> Sun Decade - Follow You (Mike Shiver's Catching Sun Mix)
> Signum - The Timelord (Signum's Spectral Balance Mix)
> Infusion - Legacy (Junkie XL Mix)
> Way Out West - Killa
> ...

> "God Bless Amerikkka"

Last edited by eXstatic on Sep-28-2004 at 20:13

NYCTrancefan

Congradulations Americans!!!

You just found your new President!

___________________
.: Greatest Trance Tracks :.
> Sun Decade - Follow You (Mike Shiver's Catching Sun Mix)
> Signum - The Timelord (Signum's Spectral Balance Mix)
> Infusion - Legacy (Junkie XL Mix)
> Way Out West - Killa
> ...

> "God Bless Amerikkka"

....ill let someone like Shakka tackle this.
my head is too tired today

quote:

Originally posted by eXstatic The problem with matters such as these is that most of the media, if not all, is controlled by the American Government.

No, you got it backwards. The Government is controlled by the media.

quote:

Now think of this for a moment. A government, elected to govern a country of millions, takes part in action that if the citizens of the country knew, they would revolt. Now, also take into consideration that the media makes up for the majority of the information that is delt to the American population. Is it not possible for the government to manipulate any historical records, and only feed you what THEY want you to know? This seems very possible.

Of course it's possible. If you can convince a billion people they were created by an all-powerful being who wants them to do this and that without backing it up with a shred of evidence, you can convince them of anything. But the American government hasn't done it - at least, not yet.

quote:

Now tell me this...do you really think someone who can order cities, full of innocent people like us, to be bombed really cares about 'liberating' the people. You tell me, how can a country be liberated through the mass killing of innocent civilians.

Interesting theory. Since you seem to have so much knowledge on proper liberation methodology, please inform us all as to how to liberate people from a brutal dictator who places strategic military targets in the areas of highest population density to discourage bombing them without killing innocent civilians.

quote:

You tell me this is part of war? Can you imagine a country that ordered for cities of the U.S. to be bombed, because they felt that the country was run under a dictatorship and that the people needed to be liberated. You tell me, how will you see this as.

Well if the U.S. really was run under a dictatorship and the people needed to be liberated, it would be an temporarily unpleasant but ultimately rewarding set of circumstances, I think.

quote:

Watching all your friends and families being blown to pieces, right infront of your eyes. Now imagine that you are unfortunate enough to survive this. Tell me what you would do. I can probably make a hypothesis that it will be much more severe than the beheading of their soldiers. Taking into consideration the fustration, hate, and anger implanted into the minds of Americans, it would be a lot worse.

Right, because I'm sure it was so much better watching them being carted off to the gas chamber for voicing their opinions or being tortured to obtain information they don't have. Tell me, how does one obtain such a warped view of reality that they can overlook torture rather than do something which might upset a few people?

quote:

Of course, I am in no way excusing these actions. But I find the stupidity and ignorance of most Americans quite ammusing. The fact that they support their government in doing these things to other countries, but the moment someone else repeats the actions of the American government, it is all-of-a-sudden seen as 'terrorism'.

Uh, I hate to break it to you, but the American government doesn't kidnap innocent civilians and hold them hostage making ludicrous demands and ultimately beheading them.

quote:

So tell me now, who is the real terrorist here. The one that uses his power and status to get away with the mass murdering of innocent people because of greed for money and world control? OR the one that fights for their country against this force who shows themselves in their country?

I would say the real terrorist is the one taking part in terrorism - that being the willful targeting of civilians as opposed to military targets in a deliberate attempt to coerce some particular entity by means of the invocation of "terror." But perhaps you disagree: do you think that the real terrorist is the one not taking part in terrorism? I know it sounds absurd to ask, but that seems to be the implication.

quote:

Originally posted by policerobots ....ill let someone like Shakka tackle this. my head is too tired today

His comments hardly merit a response as they are predicated on some pretty thin opinions/arguments. If he had his way, the U.S. would've never gotten involved in WWII and all of Europe would be in shambles. Civilians die(unfortunately) in wars and combat scenes. They were dying under Saddam Hussein as well. To imply that the U.S. deliberately targets innocent civilians is downright irresponsible, and categorically false.

Opinions are like assholes...everybody's got one.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter No, you got it backwards. The Government is controlled by the media.

I'm sorry to bring this to your attention, but it is actually you who has it mixed up. Government controls what is shown on tv, in magazine, heard on radios, etc. This is a proven fact. If you still think otherwise, research it, it you need 'concrete evidence'.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Of course it's possible. If you can convince a billion people they were created by an all-powerful being who wants them to do this and that without backing it up with a shred of evidence, you can convince them of anything. But the American government hasn't done it - at least, not yet.

And of course you have proof of this yourself. But the simple fact that you are un-aware of what the American Government is doing is enough proof that the they are controlling what the people of this world know about their operations. I am not saying I know everything myself, but I obviously know more than you, unless you are also aware of the actions and history of the American Government and you just support un-humane acts like this.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Interesting theory. Since you seem to have so much knowledge on proper liberation methodology, please inform us all as to how to liberate people from a brutal dictator who places strategic military targets in the areas of highest population density to discourage bombing them without killing innocent civilians.

Hypathetically speaking, let's just say you are correct about the placement of military targets. When you have criminals in your neighbourhood and the police are trying to capture them. Because they are situated around civilians such as yourself, does this give the police or army the right to shot down or bomb anyone within a certain proximity of that person? If so, then God help us all...

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Well if the U.S. really was run under a dictatorship and the people needed to be liberated, it would be an temporarily unpleasant but ultimately rewarding set of circumstances, I think.

All war is, is a struggle for power. Who can come out most powerful and superior. It has been proven countless times, and will continue to proove itself to the world, that humans CANNOT exist with inequalities in power. Having one person higher than the rest encourages competition. One sees this as an oppurtunity to take the power from another person, and it is an infinite cycle. I may not be an expert on liberating people, and freeing people from the struggles they have to endure, but I do know that using force, such as the American Government is doing will not only cost the lives of millions, but create further problems in the future, as you will soon see.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Right, because I'm sure it was so much better watching them being carted off to the gas chamber for voicing their opinions or being tortured to obtain information they don't have. Tell me, how does one obtain such a warped view of reality that they can overlook torture rather than do something which might upset a few people?

Let's just say you are coorect about these voicing of opinions. In America you voice any opinion that goes against the government and you are seen for commiting treason. Beating on the streets, arrested, put in jail for X amount of hours/days. You tell me that America is a country of freedome where everyone is intitled to voice their opinion. I challenge you to walk past the white house with a Hammer & Sickle on your shirt, and see how long you last.
You believe that what the Americans are doing is simple defined as 'upseting a few people'. I wonder how you feel if I walked right into your house and killed your loved one's, because I'm only trying to 'upset you' right?

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Uh, I hate to break it to you, but the American government doesn't kidnap innocent civilians and hold them hostage making ludicrous demands and ultimately beheading them.

First off, the government of Iraq had nothing to do with the kidnappings of the those people. Second, the himuliation of the Iraqi prisoners was what instigated the entire beheading. But not only that, Bush excuses the actions of the soldiers that were responsible for the himuliation of the prisoners, and allowed them back into the war.

___________________
.: Greatest Trance Tracks :.
> Sun Decade - Follow You (Mike Shiver's Catching Sun Mix)
> Signum - The Timelord (Signum's Spectral Balance Mix)
> Infusion - Legacy (Junkie XL Mix)
> Way Out West - Killa
> ...

> "God Bless Amerikkka"

quote:

Originally posted by eXstatic The problem with matters such as these is that most of the media, if not all, is controlled by the American Government. Now think of this for a moment. A government, elected to govern a country of millions, takes part in action that if the citizens of the country knew, they would revolt. Now, also take into consideration that the media makes up for the majority of the information that is delt to the American population. Is it not possible for the government to manipulate any historical records, and only feed you what THEY want you to know? This seems very possible. Some of you claim that the American government wishes to liberate the country of Iraq. Now tell me this...do you really think someone who can order cities, full of innocent people like us, to be bombed really cares about 'liberating' the people. You tell me, how can a country be liberated through the mass killing of innocent civilians. You tell me this is part of war? Can you imagine a country that ordered for cities of the U.S. to be bombed, because they felt that the country was run under a dictatorship and that the people needed to be liberated. You tell me, how will you see this as. Watching all your friends and families being blown to pieces, right infront of your eyes. Now imagine that you are unfortunate enough to survive this. Tell me what you would do. Taking into consideration the fustration, hate, and anger implanted into the minds of Americans, it would be a lot worse. Of course, I am in no way excusing these actions. But I find the stupidity and ignorance of most Americans quite ammusing. The fact that they support their government in doing these things to other countries, but the moment someone else repeats the actions of the American government, it is all-of-a-sudden seen as 'terrorism'. So tell me now, who is the real terrorist here. The one that uses his power and status to get away with the mass murdering of innocent people because of greed for money and world control? OR the one that fights for their country against this force who shows themselves in their country?

Mass murder, oh comon who fed you that line? Who are you to declare who is dead on the ground and who are you to say who killed them? There is no accurate body count in iraq because so many iraqis are killing their own people mixed with crossfire killings etc. Sure Iraqis have died, so have Americans but its hardly mass murder as you keep talking about. There is even a website that is tracking all the deaths it can in iraq and all it has listed are the means of the person's death not the perpitrator because everything is too sketchy.

Again as was discussed in another thread, American's don't base their president solely on a single event, there are lots of issues and if you aren't keen on the issues then you have no right declaring what is right and wrong for us.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by BadBadNeil Mass murder, oh comon who fed you that line? Who are you to declare who is dead on the ground and who are you to say who killed them? There is no accurate body count in iraq because so many iraqis are killing their own people mixed with crossfire killings etc. Sure Iraqis have died, so have Americans but its hardly mass murder as you keep talking about. There is even a website that is tracking all the deaths it can in iraq and all it has listed are the means of the person's death not the perpitrator because everything is too sketchy. Again as was discussed in another thread, American's don't base their president solely on a single event, there are lots of issues and if you aren't keen on the issues then you have no right declaring what is right and wrong for us.

Just wondering. But is this death tally count site American by any chance?
As for knowing historical events. I believe it's you who is ignorant to them. OF course, you did know that Sadam was put in Iraq by the American Government. But you knew this already...didn't you?

___________________
.: Greatest Trance Tracks :.
> Sun Decade - Follow You (Mike Shiver's Catching Sun Mix)
> Signum - The Timelord (Signum's Spectral Balance Mix)
> Infusion - Legacy (Junkie XL Mix)
> Way Out West - Killa
> ...

> "God Bless Amerikkka"

quote:

Originally posted by eXstatic I'm sorry to bring this to your attention, but it is actually you who has it mixed up. Government controls what is shown on tv, in magazine, heard on radios, etc. This is a proven fact. If you still think otherwise, research it, it you need 'concrete evidence'.

Interesting theory, but the money trail indicates otherwise:

quote:

Capitol Cities/ABC/Disney gave $569,000 to the Democrats and $491,450 to the Republicans between 1991 and 1997. Viacom gave $418,400 to the Dems and $122,700 to the GOP. Rupert Murdoch, owner of Fox, gave $750,000 to the California Republican Party in October 1996 alone. No big mystery here. The nation’s big broadcasters got up to $70 billion worth of digital TV licenses from Congress in 1996. (Digital TV is the new technology expected to replace the current analog format.) In 1997, it was Christmas-time again: Congress passed three new laws to benefit big broadcasters. Among them: Legislators agreed to allow broadcasters to hold onto their old analog TV licenses instead of having the Federal Communications Commission auction the licenses off, which would have raised billions for the Federal Treasury. A National Association of Broadcasters VP said he was "exceedingly pleased." http://lpa.igc.org/lpv31/lp04.htm

Yeah those media industry fellows are really getting pushed around by the big bad government, aren't they? Oh wait, no they aren't. They pay into the candidate's campaigns, and they get basically whatever they want in return.

So, where's your proof? Hidden between the bedsheets?

quote:

And of course you have proof of this yourself. But the simple fact that you are un-aware of what the American Government is doing is enough proof that the they are controlling what the people of this world know about their operations. I am not saying I know everything myself, but I obviously know more than you, unless you are also aware of the actions and history of the American Government and you just support un-humane acts like this.

Well I've been to most of the countries in Europe, not to mention India, China, Kenya and Tanzania in the last two years. None of the media in any of those places had anything to say that was different from what the media said in the U.S. - but I guess it must be that the U.S. government has control of all international news sources too!

quote:

Hypathetically speaking, let's just say you are correct about the placement of military targets. When you have criminals in your neighbourhood and the police are trying to capture them. Because they are situated around civilians such as yourself, does this give the police or army the right to shot down or bomb anyone within a certain proximity of that person? If so, then God help us all...

Answer the question: how do you liberate people from a brutal dictator who places strategic military targets in the areas of highest population density to discourage bombing them without killing innocent civilians? You're quick to criticize U.S. action, but you give no viable alternative, so your opinions are worthless.

Your analogy is false - common criminals don't possess the weapons or resources of the resources of a nation's government. If you expect to be able to use the same tactics to subdue an army that you'd use to subdue a criminal, you're a moron.

quote:

All war is, is a struggle for power. Who can come out most powerful and superior. It has been proven countless times, and will continue to proove itself to the world, that humans CANNOT exist with inequalities in power. Having one person higher than the rest encourages competition. One sees this as an oppurtunity to take the power from another person, and it is an infinite cycle. I may not be an expert on liberating people, and freeing people from the struggles they have to endure, but I do know that using force, such as the American Government is doing will not only cost the lives of millions, but create further problems in the future, as you will soon see.

Wow, you must be right on: I mean there has never been a successful revolution in the history of the world which used force. Seriously: pick up a history book - you'll find it's full of counter-examples to your baseless generalizations.

quote:

Let's just say you are coorect about these voicing of opinions. In America you voice any opinion that goes against the government and you are seen for commiting treason. Beating on the streets, arrested, put in jail for X amount of hours/days.

That's funny, because I criticize the U.S. government all the time - if you want proof, just read this forum! But somehow, they've forgot to beat me, arrest me, and put me in jail. I guess maybe I just got lucky. No one is arrested for voicing an opinion - but they may be arrested for the manner in which they choose to do so. I think that's a good thing, or we would have had to let McVeigh walk free since, after all, he was merely expressing his distaste for the government. I guess by putting him to death we no longer support free speech, right?

quote:

You tell me that America is a country of freedome where everyone is intitled to voice their opinion. I challenge you to walk past the white house with a Hammer & Sickle on your shirt, and see how long you last.

First of all I never told you that. Second, wearing a shirt doesn't have anything to do with your voice. Third, people probably do that all the time - I'm beginning to wonder if you've ever been to America. Maybe you just have a warped view of things here because the you're being deceived by the media.

quote:

You believe that what the Americans are doing is simple defined as 'upseting a few people'. I wonder how you feel if I walked right into your house and killed your loved one's, because I'm only trying to 'upset you' right?

Well if they were going to be tortured anyway, I'd say you were doing them a favor. Do you disagree? Would you prefer your loved ones to be tortured? It sure sounds like it - I'm glad I'm not related to you.

quote:

First off, the government of Iraq had nothing to do with the kidnappings of the those people. Second, the himuliation of the Iraqi prisoners was what instigated the entire beheading. But not only that, Bush excuses the actions of the soldiers that were responsible for the himuliation of the prisoners, and allowed them back into the war.

Please show where I said the government of Iraq had anything to do with the kidnappings of those people. In case you didn't know, the point of a debate is to actually address the points which the other person is making: not to try to refute arguments they never made.