quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 LOL tell that to Quiznos head office! I dont know where this stat comes from, how it's measured and applied. I have yet to hear of a woman getting less than a man. It would be interesting to see how they draw these conclusions considering salary is based on many varieties of things.

Haha work in the entertainment industry for a while and you'll definitely know what she's referring to.

The inequality in salary becomes a lot more visible when working in a position that isn't as succeptible to public scrutiny, such as an office, firm, entertainment- anything that doesn't attract attention to the public eye. Not government in Canada though; equality is very much the motto.

That may be one the reasons why you haven't heard of this. But believe me, its' blatantly there for many.

___________________
"It's too cerebral, man! We're trying to make a movie, not a film!!!!!!" - Kit Ramsey

quote:

Originally posted by Allegory Haha work in the entertainment industry for a while and you'll definitely know what she's referring to. The inequality in salary becomes a lot more visible when working in a position that isn't as succeptible to public scrutiny, such as an office, firm, entertainment- anything that doesn't attract attention to the public eye. Not government in Canada though; equality is very much the motto. That may be one the reasons why you haven't heard of this. But believe me, its' blatantly there for many.

I really dont want to hijack this thread but i want to table something. I work in a fairly large tech company and its completely equal with men vs women in management. The average age of the company is probably low 30s or high 20s. Because there are so many young people, everyone is pregnant.

Anyways, i thought i would just comment that allot of the women that are team leaders or managers are leaving for a year for maternity leave. It shocks the routine when so many of them leave and come back then leave again in a year to 2 years.
No matter how u cut it, it does have an impact. Dont get me wrong, i commend any woman that raises her child. Its the most important thing for a child imo but unfortunately i could see this being part of reason

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That can be true, but now men can go on mat. leave too I guess pedning the father's desire to be with the newborn. That's what my boyfriends good friends did, and they really enjoyed it. It's partial mat. leave for both.

I've heard of some mom's who don't want the dad to go on mat. leave though

___________________
"It's too cerebral, man! We're trying to make a movie, not a film!!!!!!" - Kit Ramsey

quote:

Originally posted by charmscars some men are targetted unfairly and some women suffer greatly. yes some divorced men care deeply about there children, but there are those that do not. I work in insurance, and i can tell you about a guy who has company benefits and he has been ordered to put his kids on his policy. so what he does to his wife, is she, will have the dental payment assigned to the dentist to cover her kids dental work and he will go into his benefits and change the payment to go to him (this is legal btw) so the mom gets stuck paying out of pocket whrn his insurance company has covered it and he makes a profit off of the backs of his kids, so the mom can't afford to have her kids dental work done, she is no longer going to take them for annual dental checkups. so in this case, it is not bullshit, ppl can actually be this selfish.

Tara, anybody can pull a scam, in divorce or in any other walk of life. Yes, guys like this are fucked, but it's not the present-day divorce system that enables them to pull the scam, it's the insurance and medical system. This isn't evidence of a system biased toward men, just evidence that there are a lot of assholes out there, which I'll concede to you in a heartbeat.

And I'll point out also that many hardworking women who work AND take care of their kids because the dad is unfit end up getting screwed by the system.

The problem is that the system favours the lazy and stupid. The court's mandate for divorce is to allow both parties to "live in the same conditions as they were when they were married." This is a product of Socialist thinking and it doesn't take an expert to see the problem with it. The obvious reason for a divorce is - you guessed it - the marital conditions sucked!

So when a woman works, she's entitled to child support but not a lot of alimony, which is how it should be. It only looks sad and ridiculous in the face of the ones who don't work, but can - the lazy asses that couldn't or didn't hold up an honest job for more than 3 hours while they were married. The courts say to the man, well, you accepted this way of life during your marriage so you have to keep it this way. So she sits on her ass and gets a free salary.

The courts don't even stop to consider the remote possibility that they got divorced because she was lazy and didn't take proper care of the kids. Or the even more remote possibility that she only married him for money in the first place (let's not kid ourselves ladies, you yourselves may be above this type of thing but it sure as hell happens out there in the real world).

The way the system is structured essentially encourages women to be as lazy as possible during marriage because that nets the biggest payout in divorce. The less a woman worked while they were married, the more she's going to get in alimony payments. THAT'S what's so fucked up about the system. And don't try to tell me that if you reversed the roles, and the woman worked like a dog throughout the marriage and the man sat on the couch all day, that the woman would have to make the same kind of alimony payments to the man after getting a divorce. Because that just isn't true. It's happened, and the proportion of alimony isn't even close.

Perhaps it's not quite correct to say that the system favours women. It doesn't favour all women. When you have a hardworking woman and a hardworking man, it can make either or both of their lives very difficult, and difficult is what you'd expect from trying to work and take care of a kid at the same time. Who has the most difficult time generally depends on who has custody - making that choice depends on a delicate balance of sharing the responsibility and looking realistically at the fitness of each parent. Often, the good-hearted women get screwed on this front because the dad is an unfit dad - but can you really lay ALL the blame on him when it was her choice to marry him and have kids in the first place? You may say that she didn't "know" he would be such a lousy parent, but I've seen this situation up close and these guys send out red flags like crazy. I mean they are absolute jerks - before, after, and during marrige. Women and men both ignore these red flags and get married anyway because they're in "love".

But I digress. The point is that although the system doesn't necessarily favour women in general, who it does favour is LAZY and MANIPULATIVE women, which is exactly who it should be punishing instead.

Does that make it any clearer? If you think I'm making grandiose generalizations then I'd be happy to collect some case studies for you.

___________________
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2009-06-18 - DJ Annoying @ People Need To Know Where I'll Be
2012-11-32 - DJ Insufferable ɸ Or At Least the Stalkers I Complain About
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quote:

Originally posted by Allegory Haha work in the entertainment industry for a while and you'll definitely know what she's referring to. The inequality in salary becomes a lot more visible when working in a position that isn't as succeptible to public scrutiny, such as an office, firm, entertainment- anything that doesn't attract attention to the public eye. Not government in Canada though; equality is very much the motto. That may be one the reasons why you haven't heard of this. But believe me, its' blatantly there for many.

Baloney. There are very good reasons for why the "average" pay for men is higher than that for women:

• Athletics: baseball and basketball salaries raise the curve bigtime for men everywhere.
  
• High-risk/unpleasant jobs: men become garbage pickers, sewage workers, building contractors, electricians, etc. The salaries they earn are practically hazard pay.
  
• High-tech or highly-specialized jobs: far more men go into high-tech industries like IT and engineering. Far more men also go into surgery and other highly specialized medical professions.
  
• As already mentioned, maternity leave. Men may be able to take it too but in general they don't. The risk factor is HUGE for a company, and anyone who understands the time value of money (a very basic principle of economics) should be able to figure out why this is important.

___________________
My party schedule:
2009-02-21 - DJ Attention @ I'm So Popular
2009-06-18 - DJ Annoying @ People Need To Know Where I'll Be
2012-11-32 - DJ Insufferable ɸ Or At Least the Stalkers I Complain About
2048-06-66 - Spastic & Whocares ¶ Although I'm Actually Flattered
9999-45-81 - Tweaker Gimp ☼ I Probably Won't Even Go To This But I Have To Make Sure I Fill Up All The Available Space Here

How about my cousin who is remarried and gets to pay child support and alimony to his ex-wife for a child who isnt even his? Meanwhile she sits on her fat ass and collects welfare!! And even worse, the real father fucked off to England so they have given up on him. Oh and did i mention that the kid is handicapped so the unnatural father will be supporting this kid for the rest of this kid's life??

He decided to quit working and live on his wife's salary as a remedy but guess what? The court came after her salary!

Where is the justice here????

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 How about my cousin who is remarried and gets to pay child support and alimony to his ex-wife for a child who isnt even his? Meanwhile she sits on her fat ass and collects welfare!! And even worse, the real father fucked off to England so they have given up on him. Oh and did i mention that the kid is handicapped so the unnatural father will be supporting this kid for the rest of this kid's life?? He decided to quit working and live on his wife's salary as a remedy but guess what? The court came after her salary! Where is the justice here????

that's nasty.
I agree that the law isn't fair for the men incase of divorce

btw man, is Quiznos Canadian or American?

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Originally posted by DigiNut Baloney. There are very good reasons for why the "average" pay for men is higher than that for women: Athletics: baseball and basketball salaries raise the curve bigtime for men everywhere. High-risk/unpleasant jobs: men become garbage pickers, sewage workers, building contractors, electricians, etc. The salaries they earn are practically hazard pay. High-tech or highly-specialized jobs: far more men go into high-tech industries like IT and engineering. Far more men also go into surgery and other highly specialized medical professions. As already mentioned, maternity leave. Men may be able to take it too but in general they don't. The risk factor is HUGE for a company, and anyone who understands the time value of money (a very basic principle of economics) should be able to figure out why this is important. So while the average pay scale for men may be higher than that of women, it is patent nonsense to blame it on any kind of systematic discrimination. "Equality" was only ever supposed to mean equal opportunity, that both men and women have the right TO DO WHAT IT TAKES to earn that high salary. Equality is not supposed to be a GUARANTEE that the salaries WILL be equal. If women want to pick garbage for a living, they can earn a whopping salary with plenty of vacation days too. But instead they go into retail and hospitality industries - the real career-motivated ones go into law and business and *sometimes* medicine but almost *never* surgery. The old myth that a woman doing the EXACT same work as a man will receive a lot less pay is just that - a myth. It's based on deeply suspect manipulation of easily explainable statistics. When companies offer positions, they decide on their salaries before they fill the job, so it doesn't matter whether a man or a woman gets it. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule. There are women in computer science and computer engineering and general surgery. There are a few female CEOs and electrical contractors. But you set the generality ball rolling when you started talking about the average pay scale, so here we are. Those are the reasons. Deal with them. We can't as a society guarantee women higher salaries unless they CHOOSE to go into the particular professions and/or trades that pay those high salaries. It comes down to INDIVIDUAL choices, and not GENDER specific issues.

Great post Diginut, very true. Anyone who still thinks that wages are unfair as far as sexes are concerned should read this post!

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Originally posted by Crazy Serb Hahaha! Be afraid, be very afraid! Or just get them to sign a pre-nup... It's your money, anyway.

wow, how values change. anyone that would make me want to sign a prenup would not be worth marying period. the idea of marriage is to become one, if you want your seperate bank accounts thats not true love, period. if you can even fathom having do a prenup in marriage that is just plain awful. if its not self explanitory you just dont get it.

just my opinion.

I heard about this couple of months ago...
leave poor guy alone!!!

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Baloney. There are very good reasons for why the "average" pay for men is higher than that for women: Athletics: baseball and basketball salaries raise the curve bigtime for men everywhere. High-risk/unpleasant jobs: men become garbage pickers, sewage workers, building contractors, electricians, etc. The salaries they earn are practically hazard pay. High-tech or highly-specialized jobs: far more men go into high-tech industries like IT and engineering. Far more men also go into surgery and other highly specialized medical professions. As already mentioned, maternity leave. Men may be able to take it too but in general they don't. The risk factor is HUGE for a company, and anyone who understands the time value of money (a very basic principle of economics) should be able to figure out why this is important. So while the average pay scale for men may be higher than that of women, it is patent nonsense to blame it on any kind of systematic discrimination. "Equality" was only ever supposed to mean equal opportunity, that both men and women have the right TO DO WHAT IT TAKES to earn that high salary. Equality is not supposed to be a GUARANTEE that the salaries WILL be equal. If women want to pick garbage for a living, they can earn a whopping salary with plenty of vacation days too. But instead they go into retail and hospitality industries - the real career-motivated ones go into law and business and *sometimes* medicine but almost *never* surgery. The old myth that a woman doing the EXACT same work as a man will receive a lot less pay is just that - a myth. It's based on deeply suspect manipulation of easily explainable statistics. When companies offer positions, they decide on their salaries before they fill the job, so it doesn't matter whether a man or a woman gets it. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule. There are women in computer science and computer engineering and general surgery. There are a few female CEOs and electrical contractors. But you set the generality ball rolling when you started talking about the average pay scale, so here we are. Those are the reasons. Deal with them. We can't as a society guarantee women higher salaries unless they CHOOSE to go into the particular professions and/or trades that pay those high salaries. It comes down to INDIVIDUAL choices, and not GENDER specific issues.

there are so few ppl in general that are in professional sports in canada, this would hardly have much of an effect. Female Models and dancers make much more than the male equivalent and there are more of them, so I would argue that this would surely cancel this out.

yes it is costly for women to go on a leave to have children, but if they didn't, everyone would be screwed, there wouldn't be enough ppl in the upcoming generations to take care of our generation- both in terms of ppl to pay taxes and ppl wokring in the healthcare industry to take care of us, as well as ppl to fill jobs!

aaron, there is such a things as a 'pink ghetto' jobs that are predominantly held by women pay less than jobs held by men, factory workers make more than daycare workers, garbage men, make more than hairdressers (who work w/ harmful chemicals)
my mother works a job that requires a job graduate work (she's a librarian) she has an undergrad and 2 master's degrees. but my dad's college diploma has allowed him to make more than double what she makes. The reason jobs that are predominantly done my men that are of a low-skill level pay better are due to historcal reasons. When women didn't work men were paid a 'family wage' - jobs performed by women paid a 'supplementary wage' as time has passed this gap has lessened, but not nearly enough.

"[*]High-tech or highly-specialized jobs: far more men go into high-tech industries like IT and engineering"
this quote of yours is exactly right, male dominated industries pay more- i would advise women to go into these industries, b/c they will benefit from the fact that men have been doing this work, and therefore the work has a higher value.

there are things that women can do to help themselves out. these are things that I am doing right now, but things that woudl have an adverse effect if everyone did it this way:

1) stay out of industries dominated by women- don't go into nursing, teaching, childcare etc. you will be paid more, even with less education if you go into male-dominated industries.

2) don't have kids

quote:

Originally posted by charmscars aaron, there is such a things as a 'pink ghetto' jobs that are predominantly held by women pay less than jobs held by men, factory workers make more than daycare workers, garbage men, make more than hairdressers (who work w/ harmful chemicals) my mother works a job that requires a job graduate work (she's a librarian) she has an undergrad and 2 master's degrees. but my dad's college diploma has allowed him to make more than double what she makes. The reason jobs that are predominantly done my men that are of a low-skill level pay better are due to historcal reasons. When women didn't work men were paid a 'family wage' - jobs performed by women paid a 'supplementary wage' as time has passed this gap has lessened, but not nearly enough.

Nobody said there's a direct relationship between your education and how much money you will make. It has nothing to do with sex. If I became a hairdresser I'd make less than a garbageman also. Lesson? Go for a higher paying job!

quote:

"[*]High-tech or highly-specialized jobs: far more men go into high-tech industries like IT and engineering" this quote of yours is exactly right, male dominated industries pay more- i would advise women to go into these industries, b/c they will benefit from the fact that men have been doing this work, and therefore the work has a higher value.

yet another example of careers that are avoided by women because they don't enjoy the work, or because they don't see other women in the field, but could be making alot of money doing it.

quote:

there are things that women can do to help themselves out. these are things that I am doing right now, but things that woudl have an adverse effect if everyone did it this way: 1) stay out of industries dominated by women- don't go into nursing, teaching, childcare etc. you will be paid more, even with less education if you go into male-dominated industries. 2) don't have kids

There are lots of examples of jobs that require little education but are well paid. After I get my degree in Computer Science, it's pretty much guaranteed that I will make less than most tradesmen. Does this have anything to do with sex? Hell no.

You keep mentioning women working with children. Well going for a job that you find enjoyable doesn't guarantee you alot of money. That's why it's called WORK. Go for a higher paying job.