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Originally posted by wolverine16 So who wants to place a bet on how long will it take for this to be closed?

6th page and still going....im not betting yet.

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Originally posted by Epicurus The point I'm trying to make is that continuing to support Israel unequivocally, continuing to act on imperialist-like foreign policies, continuing to wage war for control of oil reserves and stabilization purposes, all purposes that are unjust, will give radical Islam good justifications to expand as it has, and people will continue to support it across the region you wish peace upon because they will agree that their cause is legitimit and just.

Then how can you explain the attack on the Cole (2000), or the attack on US embassy (199?

At a time when the US was perhaps at the height of international popularity (1998), these attacks still continued: Israel was NOT being supported unequivocally; it was a time of the greatest peace to have ever existed between Israelis and Palestinians. There was no war being waged for oil or imperialist-like foreign policies either. How then can your philosophy explain the legitimacy of those attacks?


I do admit US foreign policy hasn't been popular, but prior to 911 it has not committed any offenses warranting terrorist attacks on its civilians. I can't understand how anyone could see such attacks really as "justified". Justified for what?

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I do admit US foreign policy hasn't been popular, but prior to 911 it has not committed any offenses warranting terrorist attacks on its civilians. I can't understand how anyone could see such attacks really as "justified". Justified for what?

Yoepus,
You can't be serious when you actually ask me these questions. The US has supported Israel unequivocally since 1967. I'm assuming you know that. Whether it be through the UN with the vetoing of resolutions, whether it be through aid in the form of weaponery or money, whether it be through words of support, the US has been the only true ally Israel has had since its existence. This didn't change through the nineties and won't change anytime soon.

Furthermore, there is a correct perception that the US will do what it can around the world, under pretext of liberating people, fighting for human rights, removing oppressive dictators and so forth, to fill the pockets of its corporations and secure for itself geo-political vested interets.

The point is this: EVEN if Bin Laden's and Al-Quaeda's true purpose is not just retribution for these injustices, but some perverted form of holy conquest, the large majority of people in the Arab and Muslim world will not sympathize with the US and will interpret Al-Qaeda's actions as just and fair retribution for the above legitimit grievances. In fact, Bin Laden has taken advantage of just that. The Palestinian cause was a recent addition to his list of grievances (I never saw it being mentioned before 9/11 by him), and he is currently using it to propel his own agenda.

The problem with radical Islam is that its growing. Radical Islam is a very recent phenomenon in the world, but it can be quelled as long as there is very little support for it, especially in the Arab and Muslim world. But as long as you allow causes for grievances to remain etched in the memory of all, and furthermore, exacerbate the situation by continuing to wage illegal wars for profit, you're fighting a losing battle.

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As an non muslim Arab, I totally agree with the elimination of radical Islam. Muslims in general are pretrty layed back but once they start getting radical views, they deserve the get shot in the head. All the lame excuses about Israel are getting old. Muslims are killing themselves much more than Israel is killing muslims. In Iraq they're killing each other in Pakistan and Afghanistan sunnis and shiites have been killing each other. the Iran Iraq war killed millions. Saddam killed his own people, King Hussein of Jordan killed as many palestinians in one day than Israel killed in years. Yet the whole muslim world is raging their fists to Israel.

I'll agree that there is a sense of hyprocrisy in the Arab world in general when it comes to the issue of Israel. We tend to blame all of our problems on Israel when many problems are of our own doing. That, however, does not mean that Israel is not guilty of the crimes it has commited and continues to commit against the Palestinian people.

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Well IMO it's only jealousy, muslims cant stand the fact that their are billions yet Jews are probably less than 50 millions worldwide. Yet the have so much money that thet're able to rule the world, the media and create propaganda. Well boo hoo wake up and do something about it. If Islamic countries werent as retarted as their are they wouldnt have such a shitty economy. Thus they would have more things to do and more chicks to screw than covering their faces and worrying about their dear palestinian parasites.

I'm glad you prefaced your statement with "IMO", because an opinion it is, and a shitty opinion at that. Jealousy? lol...where do people come up with this stuff...do you have any evidence to support this claim of jealousy, or did you project your own experiences of insecurity on an entire people?

Anyway, I'm assuming you're Lebanese, live in Ville St. Laurent and are Maronite...figures. Try not to let personal and emotional reasons dictate solutions to this problem, and next time, please refrain from simultaneously insulting an entire religion and an entire people.

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Originally posted by Q5echo we're all waiting for your ideas then.

Here's some the rest of the world have been peddling since, oh, since the war against terror started...

Resolve the Israel-Palestine conflict (something Bush has done fuck all about)

Do not, I repeat, do not create the impression that the West is out to destroy Islam, thereby playing straight into the hands of what bin Laden actually wants (something Bush has done)

Tackle global poverty, and the lack of wealth in the third world, which is one of the key radicalisers of muslims (something the whole world has done fuck all about)

Any good?

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Originally posted by ShadoWolf There's no such thing as a moderate Muslim. Their immediate goal is to conquer Europe, and then to destroy the West.

What a c.u.n.t

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Originally posted by Dunya LOL 'jews' should be eliminated. That is always what binladen Hamas Al zarqawi said. Almost the whole US is jewish. And I think it is not hard work to ride a plane in those buildings. The nazis dreamed about this oppurtunity.

Another c.u.n.t

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Originally posted by Q5echo are you referring to me? i differ with you on my presidents performance against radical Islam

You cannot possibly believe that Bush has had any success in combating radical Islam can you?! That is insane!

Radical Islam is an idea, a concept, an ideology...it is not a physical object that can be killed or destroyed with guns and missiles

Just what exactly is it that you think Bush has done to combat the al-Qaida ideology? Has he convinced the Muslim world that he is no threat to them, as bin Laden and co tell them? No. Has he killed shit loads of innocent Muslims? Yes.

My friend, radical Islam has increased so much since 11/9 directly because of the actions of Bush. There is so much that can be done and needs to be done to make the al-Qaida ideology unattractive to the masses (poverty, globalisation, etc) but ALL Bush has done is kill people. He hasn't even began to think about resolving the Palestinian conflict! Bush is losing the war on terrorism dramatically. The only good thing he did was invade Afghanistan and he even fucked that up by just bombing it for weeks while sending in those ever so nice Northern Alliance people in instead of sending his own troops in allowing bin Laden to escape. But lets face it, the war on terrorism is a con. We should just stop refering to this illusion that is the war on terrorism and call it by its proper name - project for a new American century...

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Originally posted by Q5echo i am not interested in the reasons why OBL declared war on my country six years ago. i am not interested in why Jamhal Islamia seeks to spread like a plague. i am interested in a solution.

That is the most idiotic statement I have ever seen!

What kind of a solution do you expect to find without understanding why radical exists? How can you defeat radical Islam if you dont know what its causes are? Kill them all?!?!?!

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that solution involves military force among a host of many other things that my country is doing.......i say he's doing every thing he can to give long term peace to Islam.

Yes it does involve military force in the short term. Radicalised Muslims are not very likely to become unradicalised and if they belong to anti-West terrorist groups need to be taken out. Afghanistan was the right war, Iraq was the wrong war. Invading Afghanistan was neccessary for breaking up al-Qaida and I am lead to believe it was succesful in that. However, that merely whitnessed the next stage of the evolution of al-Qaida - where it is no longer a traditional terrorist organisation and becomes merely a belief. We now have radicalised Muslims all over the world with nothing to do with bin Laden who want to die fighting America. Invading Iraq just increased there number. There was no need to invade Iraq. It was a major mistake and we have paid for it in places like Madrid.

I'm interested tho...tell me what exactly Bush has done to remove the causes of Radical Islam (or are you not interested?)

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Originally posted by Yoepus Epicurus, I'm curious... What legitimate grievance were the cause for the 'effect' of having three planes flown into buildings and killing thousands of innocents by suprise and with no warning or decleration?

There's quite a lot writen about it maybe you should check it out?!

I would draw a definite line through "legitimate greviences" and justification. There is no justification in killing innocent civilians no matter how bad your life is. But the terrorists did have an axe to grind with America (or were led to believe)

The senior members it is pointed out often enough were fairly well educated with 'prospects' but the truth is there are very little oppertunities and prospects for graduates in the third world (its gonna be hard enough for me and I live in the most advanced nation on Earth!) They blame this on the West taking away all their wealth (globalisation) and become attracted to the idea that this could all be solved under the Shariat (Islamic law) as nothing else seems to work. They also see Palestinian suffering as being enforced by American money (which lets face it, it is) Bin Laden has tapped in to these "legitimate greviences" and has used it to muster support for his own aims (the usual troops out of Saudi Arabia etc)

But like I said, that is very different to 'justification'

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Originally posted by Epicurus Yoepus, You can't be serious when you actually ask me these questions. The US has supported Israel unequivocally since 1967.

And Arabs have unequivocally been for the destruction of the Jewish state since 1948 - you don't see many westerns up in arms about that.

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the US has been the only true ally Israel has had since its existence.

Come on, I know you Arabs like to make things up. But this is absurd coming from someone who claims to be knowledgeable about the subject. The Arab's best buds, yes the very we like to call cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys or others like to call the French, were Israel's only and truest ally till 1967... the USA wasn't selling it any arms then. Guess who was?

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This didn't change through the nineties and won't change anytime soon.

So your trying to tell me Bush isn't worse than Clinton?
Phew. I knew you'd come through

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Furthermore, there is a correct perception that the US will do what it can around the world, under pretext of liberating people, fighting for human rights, removing oppressive dictators and so forth, to fill the pockets of its corporations and secure for itself geo-political vested interets.

There is also a pretext that Arabs hate Jews, what's your point?

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The point is this:

Oh ok, forgive my haste

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EVEN if Bin Laden's and Al-Quaeda's true purpose is not just retribution for these injustices, but some perverted form of holy conquest, the large majority of people in the Arab and Muslim world will not sympathize with the US and will interpret Al-Qaeda's actions as just and fair retribution for the above legitimit grievances.

And all I am saying is how is that justified?
Just because some people warp some twisted unlegitimate cause to suit their emotions doesn't make it legitimate. Now does it make there emotions any truer.

Seriously, in the past 30 years what has the USA done (aside from support Israel) that has been so horrible to the Arab world? What great injustices has it created?

I don't care what injustices the USA has done to the Latin American countries, or to the East Asians ones - they don't seem to be up and arms in it - and the USA directly killed thousands of them. What has the USA done to the Arab world in the past 30 years that has caused "legitimate" feelings of hate against it?

Unless you are willing to conceed that the existance of Israel is the very cause of oppression across all the Arab world, I can't see any harm to the masses of Arabs because the USA is selling weapons and vetoing resolutions which don't even attempt to look objective, in favor of Israel.



I understand that the Arab world does not sympathize with the USA. My real question is why do they hate them? Because the answer to that is really beyond me, I can't find any major fault on the part of the USA that would warrant that sentiment of hatered (pre-911 anyway).

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In fact, Bin Laden has taken advantage of just that. The Palestinian cause was a recent addition to his list of grievances (I never saw it being mentioned before 9/11 by him), and he is currently using it to propel his own agenda.

But your argument was that we should reason with him, no? That there must be a legitimate greivance behind the islamo-facists. Perhaps if the USA would be diplomatic, perhaps give up Israel in favor of winning the hearts and minds of the Arab street? Corrupt its well-established morals, traditions, and philosophies of hundreds of years just so it can win some points in the minds of the uneducated Arab masses?

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The problem with radical Islam is that its growing.

Prove it.

I don't know of any metrics that measure this objectively. For all I know you might be right, then again you might not be. But perhaps you know of some objective method of measuring this?

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Radical Islam is a very recent phenomenon in the world, but it can be quelled as long as there is very little support for it, especially in the Arab and Muslim world.

If one dies when joining/supporting Radical Islam, would that not be a deterent for supporting it?

Therefore if one is to use your assumption in the quote above, that Radical Islam "can be quelled as long as there is very little support for it". Can we not follow the following train of logic to Shaka's conclusion?

A) ASSUME - People like to live.
B) ASSUME - People prefer not to support causes which will kill them.
C) EVENT - The USA kills a lot of Radical Islamist and/or their supporters.
D) CONCLUDE - Less people will support Radical Islamist or become them because it might be dangerous to their health.
E) CONCLUDE - (using your assumption) Radical Islam can be quelled by the USA killing a lot of their activists.

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But as long as you allow causes for grievances to remain etched in the memory of all

What "causes for grievances" are you talking about?
Israel is just one cause.

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and furthermore, exacerbate the situation by continuing to wage illegal wars for profit, you're fighting a losing battle.

Right, theres no better way to wage war for profit then throwing away half a trillion out of the treasury and giving it to the Iraqis and Afghanis... Yup! You sure are a sharp one alright!

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quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Seriously, in the past 30 years what has the USA done (aside from support Israel) that has been so horrible to the Arab world? What great injustices has it created?

Its not just the Arab world and its not just America. Poverty and a general lack of wealth compared to the civilisation that they are supposed to be striving to be like is a major recruiting factor to radical Islam. As leader of the Western world, and with its hawkish views, America bears the brunt of this anger (especially when twisted around an ideology that is fundamentally against America due to Israel, troops in the Holy Lands, etc) Poverty and globalisation are legitimate concerns and are issues that need resolving or else I predict we will see huge swathes of non-Muslims taking up the fight against the West to reclaim the wealth that is stolen from them (and maybe there would be justification there?)

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I don't care what injustices the USA has done to the Latin American countries, or to the East Asians ones - they don't seem to be up and arms in it - and the USA directly killed thousands of them. What has the USA done to the Arab world in the past 30 years that has caused "legitimate" feelings of hate against it?

I think its more to do with the fact that the Arab world, or more correctly the Islamic World as whole has its religion as the rallying call whereas these other areas dont have that. Still, they have all been fucked up the arse by America just as much!

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I understand that the Arab world does not sympathize with the USA. My real question is why do they hate them? Because the answer to that is really beyond me, I can't find any major fault on the part of the USA that would warrant that sentiment of hatered (pre-911 anyway).

Well obviously after 11/9 we have the killing of 1000s of Muslims but you quite slyly stook "pre-9/11" at the end! Dont get ahead of yourself and assume that the entire Arab world thinks the same as bin Laden cos they dont. It is just as valid to ask why Europeans dont sympathise with America and the answer will probably be similar - they may just disagree with American beliefs and ideals (the ones they impose on the rest of the world, not the ones their citizens at home enjoy!)

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Therefore if one is to use your assumption in the quote above, that Radical Islam "can be quelled as long as there is very little support for it". Can we not follow the following train of logic to Shaka's conclusion? A) ASSUME - People like to live. B) ASSUME - People prefer not to support causes which will kill them. C) EVENT - The USA kills a lot of Radical Islamist and/or their supporters. D) CONCLUDE - Less people will support Radical Islamist or become them because it might be dangerous to their health. E) CONCLUDE - (using your assumption) Radical Islam can be quelled by the USA killing a lot of their activists.

The death penalty in America has had no affect on crime, in fact America is the worst in the western world (well, not counting Iraq and Afghanistan now that they have joined the western civilisation!!) The threat of death wont put people off and certainly if they begin to think radically death is actually welcomed. I think the key to quelling radical Islam is to make them feel it is wrong to kill innocent people which the vast majority of, not just Muslims, but people around the world also think (shame it doesn't extend to the White House tho...)