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Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: oh, he didnt?? where are his remains?

Probably in the same place where all the bones of transitional fossils are. Lost and eaten away.

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why were there more than 500 eye-witnesses who saw him. the accounts of his life were written by eye-witnesses, and there were 4 accounts of his life, each written with a different aspect in mind. the romans have account of that gaurds were posted at his tomb to ward off the possibility of his followers taking his body and claiming he rose from the dead. but the gaurds abandoned the tomb because something scared them so much, that they just ran. the huge door to the tomb was rolled open, and no body was found. he appeared to more than 500 people. not just a few. and it was he himself, in the flesh, because thomas actually touched his wounds because he was skeptical himself. he even ate with his disciples. jesus did certainy rise from the dead.

Yes, well, except that nobody mentions any of these happenings except the bible. If we examine roman historical records of the time, Jesus is not mentioned anywhere, which is quite odd considering that he was a pretty important figure in Judea at the time. As far as the gospels go, their first appearance in written form was dated to about a 100 or so years after the described events occured. George Smiley's post about a private crucifiction and faked death and ressurection is probably based on Dead Sea scrolls and a supposed 5th gospel (I forgot who was it that wrote that one) that's been thrown out of the bible at Council of Nicaea in 4th century, when christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire. Now, the supposed 5th gospel said that Golgotha was in a private backyard of one of Jesus's acquaintances (I also forgot whose) and described the events as George said above. What we know for certain is that aside from rearraging the bible, easter and christmass dates were set on that council to battle against pagan festivities. Most pagan religions had some sort of a solar festivity celebrating the new year and a new beginning as the days became longer. Christmass was set up on december 25th to interfere with that celebration and to give it christian spirit. Same goes for easter, it was originally a spring festival of procreation, and that's why you still have rabbits and eggs around for easter. It's a remnant of a pagan holiday.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Probably in the same place where all the bones of transitional fossils are. Lost and eaten away. Yes, well, except that nobody mentions any of these happenings except the bible. If we examine roman historical records of the time, Jesus is not mentioned anywhere, which is quite odd considering that he was a pretty important figure in Judea at the time. As far as the gospels go, their first appearance in written form was dated to about a 100 or so years after the described events occured. George Smiley's post about a private crucifiction and faked death and ressurection is probably based on Dead Sea scrolls and a supposed 5th gospel (I forgot who was it that wrote that one) that's been thrown out of the bible at Council of Nicaea in 4th century, when christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire. Now, the supposed 5th gospel said that Golgotha was in a private backyard of one of Jesus's acquaintances (I also forgot whose) and described the events as George said above. What we know for certain is that aside from rearraging the bible, easter and christmass dates were set on that council to battle against pagan festivities. Most pagan religions had some sort of a solar festivity celebrating the new year and a new beginning as the days became longer. Christmass was set up on december 25th to interfere with that celebration and to give it christian spirit. Same goes for easter, it was originally a spring festival of procreation, and that's why you still have rabbits and eggs around for easter. It's a remnant of a pagan holiday.

Not sure what that other Gospel says but the info from "my theory" comes from clues in the Bible (ie when John and Matthews account are put together the crucifiction has to be in Josephs garden)

And your quite right, the Bible was "edited" in around 350AD and many Gospels that didn't go along with what the church wanted to tell people got left out (there was a clash between those who claimed Jesus was devine (the victorious) and those who claimed he was mortal, like the Gnostics who were wiped out by the Catholic church)

good discussion guys keep it up,i dont have much to add here but i find the reading material here fascinating from all peoples points of view,regardless of my own position

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Originally posted by zig good discussion guys keep it up,i dont have much to add here but i find the reading material here fascinating from all peoples points of view,regardless of my own position

Dont you get Channel 4 in Ireland? There was a programme on xmas day called who wrote the Bible that was pretty interesting...

http://www.channel4.com/believe

Ye we get all the uk channels here inc ch4,i auctually saw that programme advertised but there were a few young kids here on xmas day hogging the tv and video recorder,glad u reminded me definatly look out for a repeat..interesting topic

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Originally posted by zig Ye we get all the uk channels here inc ch4,i auctually saw that programme advertised but there were a few young kids here on xmas day hogging the tv and video recorder,glad u reminded me definatly look out for a repeat..interesting topic

Yea the repeat was on two days ago!!

There is a book, which I intend to buy at some point, called "The Gnostic Gospels" by Elaine Pagels that gives the history of early xtianity and talks about the gospels that were left out

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Originally posted by zig Ye we get all the uk channels here inc ch4,i auctually saw that programme advertised but there were a few young kids here on xmas day hogging the tv and video recorder,glad u reminded me definatly look out for a repeat..interesting topic

wait a sec...your telling me that little kids demanded to watch either eastenders or midsummer murders*??? or was there some irish programme on? or worse yet...can you afford sky?!









*midsummer murders is excellent tho!

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Yea the repeat was on two days ago!!

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can you afford sky?!

Well as regards the repeat,i guess thats why they call Tranceaddict,addict,to much time in here on days off..hate that..book sounds interesting..and as my mam is of the old fashioned veriety as regards xmas presents(socks,shaving cream and a book voucher..true..lol)ill probably check that out..and bore the arse off everyone quoting endless passages in here..hehe


yep i can afford sky..guy next door has it 24/7 football in his house other mates have it as well,myself couldnt be arsed

as regards the kids,think it was shrek and then harry potter for afters..

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Originally posted by zig Well as regards the repeat,i guess thats why they call Tranceaddict,addict,to much time in here on days off..hate that..book sounds interesting..and as my mam is of the old fashioned veriety as regards xmas presents(socks,shaving cream and a book voucher..true..lol)ill probably check that out..and bore the arse off everyone quoting endless passages in here..hehe yep i can afford sky..guy next door has it 24/7 football in his house other mates have it as well,myself couldnt be arsed as regards the kids,think it was shrek and then harry potter for afters..

Balls

Don't make excuses mate! I watched the whole of Harry Potter...

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Don't make excuses mate! I watched the whole of Harry Potter...

ow ye i forgot about the adults..7 in total..3 bottles of wine..9 cans of larger..14 cans of guinness draught..half a bottle of sherry..some bacardi breezers..gin and more larger to boot and then we watched harry potter..half the adults fell asleep..and i just disappeared and had a big spliff..christmas day is great..anyway happy new year mate and dont drink tooo much is my advice..hehe have a good one

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Originally posted by George Smiley The Romans would not bend the rules for Jews as you say, they didn't like them. There must have been somekind of deal of collaberation with the Romans to have them give permission to let Jesus be burried.

really? the jews had him executed. why would they care if jesus was buried or not? pilate believed jesus to be innocent.

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Have to do that later to find other sources

yea, and i bet they had a Walgreens on every corner

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evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. 58Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. 59Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60and placed it in HIS OWN NEW TOMB that he had cut out of the rock" (Matthew 27:60) - from this we know Joseph owned the tomb Jesus was buried in - correct At the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had ever been laid.42Because it was the Jewish day of Preparation and since the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there." (John 19:41) - from this we know Jesus was crucified at the same place he was burried - at the site of Josophs Private tomb There is only one new tomb in the garden Jesus was burried in so he was crucified in Josephs garden

but how does this support that it was all set up?

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So nobody who knew Jesus was near him? Everyone who knew him (knew what he looked like etc) were at a distance? And even then thats assuming the rest of the people were near him which there is no evidence

your twisting my words. his acquaintances and the women who followed him from galilee. im ganna have to use the dictionary again..

Main Entry: ac·quain·tance
Pronunciation: &-'kwAn-t&n(t)s
Function: noun
1 a : the state of being acquainted b : personal knowledge : FAMILIARITY
2 a : the persons with whom one is acquainted b : a person whom one knows but who is not a particularly close friend

the people who knew jesus personally, talked to him, etc. were at a distance. the public was nearby watching. the pharisees hurled insults at him while he was on the cross. "He says he can save the world, yet he cant even save himself." and people heard the words jesus said when he said, "it is finished", 'today u will be with me in paradise", "im thirsty", "My God, My God, why have u forsaken me?". this is the evidence there were close observers. where is your evidence that there wasnt?

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Simon is described as a Zealot, and other disiples express Zealot tendencies

none of the disciples were zealots, except for judas, who hung himself. and u probably think they staged that too. and that they staged the marks on jesus's hands and feet and side. but whatever. paul was a former zealot, but none of the disciples were zealots.

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Well do a Google search for the Gospels of Thomas and Mary, then check out where they appear in the Bible...

no, i meant that it was unreadable. unless the gospels of thomas and mary are in the bible, they are irrelevant to the discussion.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 ...If we examine roman historical records of the time, Jesus is not mentioned anywhere, which is quite odd considering that he was a pretty important figure in Judea at the time....

Two words:

Flavius Josephus (c. A.D. 37-100).

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“Jewish Antiquities”, by Flavius Josephus. Book 18, Chapter 3, paragraphs 1-3 Chapter 3. Rebellion of the Jews against Pontius Pilate. Concerning Christ, and what befell Paulina and the Jews at Rome. 1. (55) But now Pilate, the procurator of Judea, removed the army from Caesarea to Jerusalem, to take their winter quarters there, in order to abolish the Jewish laws. So he introduced Caesar's effigies, which were upon the ensigns, and brought them into the city; whereas our law forbids us the very making of images; (56) on which account the former procurators were accustomed to make their entry into the city with such ensigns as had not those ornaments. Pilate was the first who brought those images to Jerusalem, and set them up there; which was done without the knowledge of the people, because it was done in the nighttime; (57) but as soon as they knew it, they came in multitudes to Caesarea, and interceded with Pilate many days that he would remove the images; and when he would not grant their requests, because it would tend to the injury of Caesar, while yet they persevered in their request, on the sixth day he ordered his soldiers to have their weapons privately, while he came and sat upon his judgment seat, which seat was so prepared in the open place of the city, that it concealed the army that lay ready to oppress them; (58) and when the Jews petitioned him again, he gave a signal to the soldiers to surround them, and threatened that their punishment should be no less than immediate death, unless they would leave off disturbing him, and go their ways home. (59) But they threw themselves upon the ground, and laid their necks bare, and said they would take their death very willingly, rather than the wisdom of their laws should be transgressed; upon which Pilate was deeply affected with their firm resolution to keep their laws inviolable, and presently commanded the images to be carried back from Jerusalem to Caesarea. 2. (60) But Pilate undertook to bring a current of water to Jerusalem, and did it with the sacred money, and derived the origin of the stream from the distance of two hundred furlongs. However, the Jews [1] were not pleased with what had been done about this water; and many ten thousands of the people got together, and made a clamor against him, and insisted that he should leave off that design. Some of them also used reproaches, and abused the man, as crowds of such people usually do. (61) So he outfitted a great number of his soldiers in the clothing of the crowd, who carried daggers under their garments, and sent them to a place where they might surround them. So he directed the Jews himself to go away; but when they boldly cast reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; (62) who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were disorderly, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them killed by this means, and others of them ran away wounded. And thus an end was put to this rebellion. 3. (63) Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. (64) And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross [2], those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day [3], as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named for him, are not extinct at this day.

Flavius Josephus was a contemporary of Jesus. He was also a Jew. His complete works are available online or in your local library/bookstore. You can find his works in the Judaica section.

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