quote:

Originally posted by MarkT indeed. Once again, Jayx1 feels that people have a "right" to do whatever the fuck they want, including driving whatever car they want

God forbid that I should advocate freedom,

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quote:

Originally posted by jester Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill

In the case of cars though, they DO pollute the air and cause environmental damage. I actually have no problem with legislation forcing dealers to better fuel economy and reduce emmisions. It's somewhat the same as smoking in my book, it has the potential to harm OTHER people, not just yourself. Obviously they can't ban cars unless they're going to provide us with a perfect transportation system (hah! yeah right), so forcing dealers to make 'cleaner' cars is actually a decision I support. They aren't banning SUVs per se, they're saying that they need to meet their requirements before they can be sold. I think we have all the speed and acceleration we need for now... it's time to catch up on the effeciency side of things. 2010 though? That's more than a little outrageous. I'm a fan of compromise, and 2010 is not a fair timeline at all.

quote:

Originally posted by SurrJRS And Americans are idiots because they're ignorant of the real world.

Americans are idiots for many reasons, but being ignorant of the real world isn't one of them. THAT honour falls to the Canadians, and comments like the one you just posted are the proof.

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT ah, you know what I mean...why is that not considered government interference in our choices. Why can't I choose an AWD Ford Focus RS vs. the crap they give us here (I support the bumper guidelines...this is just an example). the real, tangible consequences from this situation have less to do about the government "interfering in our right to choose our car" (as Jayx1 would say) than they do for car manufacturers who earn the bulk of their profit from their SUVs and luxery cars. Ford LOSES money on every Focus sold in Canada (unless that's changed recently)...but profit margins on feature-laden luxery cars and SUVs are huge. So this type of decision would really affect the Canadian market and the car makers and dealerships.

Be that as it may, forcibly cutting into a company's profits in the name of the environment when we (a) don't have legitimate proof that the company is seriously hurting the environment and (b) can't produce any real evidence that hurting the environment is somehow detrimental to our quality of life, is no more "moral" than taking away the consumer's freedom to choose their car.

Will Ontario roads be safer with SUVs gone? Almost certainly. Does that make it OK to ban them? No.

There is always a balance that has to be reached with rules and regulations. Crash test safety is important; it's not even just to protect the driver but also any passengers he/she may have who aren't necessarily aware of the risk they'd be taken riding in a car that explodes on impact. The Drive Clean program has yet to produce any documented tangible benefits to us, and these oppressive fuel-efficiency guidelines will take nanny-ism to a new extreme.

Ontario seems to have this penchant for trying to adopt all of California's failed policies under the headline of "it was a good idea, they just implemented it wrong, we're going to do it RIGHT!". And EVERY SINGLE TIME, it fucks up the country/province as a result. When are people going to learn that just because California did something doesn't mean we should do it?

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My party schedule:
2009-02-21 - DJ Attention @ I'm So Popular
2009-06-18 - DJ Annoying @ People Need To Know Where I'll Be
2012-11-32 - DJ Insufferable ɸ Or At Least the Stalkers I Complain About
2048-06-66 - Spastic & Whocares ¶ Although I'm Actually Flattered
9999-45-81 - Tweaker Gimp ☼ I Probably Won't Even Go To This But I Have To Make Sure I Fill Up All The Available Space Here

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 God forbid that I should advocate freedom,

freedom isn't absolute, without limitation...never has been, never will be.

A responsible gov't takes action when industry and consumers are too greedy, lazy and complacent to curb their own behaviour...it's quite likely that in our lifetime, some very real consequences of the declining oil reserves will be felt.

Who's going to take the blame when gas prices go through the roof and hit European levels or higher? The government...because people have that silly sense of entitlement that they should all have cars, cheap insurance and cheap gas.

I'd love to see a big, fat tax on every SUV sold...I mean something like several thousand dollars PER VEHICLE...and have that money put DIRECTLY into improving public transit.

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT I'd love to see a big, fat tax on every SUV sold...I mean something like several thousand dollars PER VEHICLE...and have that money put DIRECTLY into improving public transit.

Ahh, you see, if they actually put that money into improving public transit, and had a concrete plan for how to spend it, I'd support the tax too.

Unfortunately, responsible government in Canada is at an all-time low. That's one huge reason why I simply will never support any tax that they throw at us - because it's guaranteed to be foolishly squandered.

The biggest problem with the tax-and-spend liberal mentality is that the government is not simply a machine-like "filter" as those people would like it to be; the government is in fact made up of real people, much like those in the corporate world, who are subject to the same weaknesses of greed and corruption. But to add insult to injury, the government is also NOT ACCOUNTABLE for its spending or its actions in general.

Does it really make sense to take money from people who, despite their greed, are aiming to innovate and improve production, and give it to people who are practically guaranteed to sink it into some useless personal or political interest? That's a bulletproof recipe for a failing economy.

___________________
My party schedule:
2009-02-21 - DJ Attention @ I'm So Popular
2009-06-18 - DJ Annoying @ People Need To Know Where I'll Be
2012-11-32 - DJ Insufferable ɸ Or At Least the Stalkers I Complain About
2048-06-66 - Spastic & Whocares ¶ Although I'm Actually Flattered
9999-45-81 - Tweaker Gimp ☼ I Probably Won't Even Go To This But I Have To Make Sure I Fill Up All The Available Space Here

yet we happily take their word for it when they say they'll match Tsunami donations dollar for dollar

I'm sure there could be *some* mechanism to be put into place to ensure the money went to transit, no?

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Originally posted by MarkT yet we happily take their word for it when they say they'll match Tsunami donations dollar for dollar I'm sure there could be *some* mechanism to be put into place to ensure the money went to transit, no?

funny thing about that. The government is pretending to be so generous to match dollar for dollar but sadly people forget that THEY ARE SPENDING OUR MONEY. So really when you give, you give twice. But hell, people buy it and they get re-elected so it's all good.

I tend to not get suckered in by being bribed with my own money but thats just me

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quote:

Originally posted by jester Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill

If ya want an SUV but not the size & the shit fuel milage?....get a Subaru Outback

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"Kiss them for me...for I may be delayed."

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT yet we happily take their word for it when they say they'll match Tsunami donations dollar for dollar I'm sure there could be *some* mechanism to be put into place to ensure the money went to transit, no?

LOL, yeah that is pretty funny. It's sort of the same when you think about our government paying interest on the debt with tax money - Canadians own more than 80% of the debt, so they're essentially taking money from us in order to make the minimum payments on loans they took out on us. Brilliant...

I'm sure you're right - there could certainly be some mechanism. But they key word is COULD. There are plenty of things that are possible in THEORY. But it's never going to happen here in Canada. As I recall, the Conservative government actually implemented balanced budget laws in Ontario at one point, and the subsequent Liberal government promptly repealed them. I can certainly see our government slapping a tax on SUVs, but I can't see them making any effort to spend the money wisely.

___________________
My party schedule:
2009-02-21 - DJ Attention @ I'm So Popular
2009-06-18 - DJ Annoying @ People Need To Know Where I'll Be
2012-11-32 - DJ Insufferable ɸ Or At Least the Stalkers I Complain About
2048-06-66 - Spastic & Whocares ¶ Although I'm Actually Flattered
9999-45-81 - Tweaker Gimp ☼ I Probably Won't Even Go To This But I Have To Make Sure I Fill Up All The Available Space Here

I don't see how any of you can say that owning an SUV or whatever is a right? It was a privelage for it to be available to you to buy in the first place. Sometimes, privelages are taken away if it causes harm to others. So the "I have a right to own an SUV" is not a fair argument.

Billions of people now, in the future and for the rest of time, HAVE THE RIGHT to breathe clean fresh air. If your crappy ass car is making it so this is not possible, why don't you get off your high horse, stop being so selfish and help out with the betterment of our planet?

I think that SUV owners should be allowed to trade their vehicles in for more fuel efficient vehicles, at a very good price. That is a fair trade off if you ask me.

Jay, you seem to think that ANY type of change is for the worse, but did you stop to think that the constant changes of our o-zone, and our environment is changing in a massively destructive way because of our poor decisions as humans? Our decisions are the only thing we can change indefinitely, and it's about damn time that we start making new ones that are beneficial to the ONLY thing we all have, and that sir, is our planet, (which by the way, is in terrible shape).

Take some environmental studies classes, and you will get a serious wake up call. If we continue in the manner we are going at for the moment, we will all incur the wrath of nature retaliating against us.

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa I don't see how any of you can say that owning an SUV or whatever is a right? It was a privelage for it to be available to you to buy in the first place.

Everything to you is a privilege. A privilege granted by who? By the government?

The way society is supposed to operate is to give freedom to all and THEN restrict the behaviours that are harmful or violate the rights of other individuals.

You seem to view society as an all-controlling government that restricts everything and then opens up little nooks for people. That's called communism.

Incidentally, there isn't *ANY* reliable evidence to support your assertion that our planet/environment is "in terrible shape", which you so casually mention as if it's somehow common knowledge. Yes, there are measurables like greenhouse emissions and temperature gradients, but since we really only started looking at those things in the 50s, we have no way of knowing whether the changes are actually caused by us or are simply cyclical natural phenomena. We need MUCH more time to determine that.

Geesh... I know that there are *some* well-spoken Liberals out there, but most of them just seem to be power-hungry kooks wanting to impose their beliefs on the rest of the world without having to justify them.

___________________
My party schedule:
2009-02-21 - DJ Attention @ I'm So Popular
2009-06-18 - DJ Annoying @ People Need To Know Where I'll Be
2012-11-32 - DJ Insufferable ɸ Or At Least the Stalkers I Complain About
2048-06-66 - Spastic & Whocares ¶ Although I'm Actually Flattered
9999-45-81 - Tweaker Gimp ☼ I Probably Won't Even Go To This But I Have To Make Sure I Fill Up All The Available Space Here