quote:

Originally posted by ABTsportsline Trancewave, I appreciate your taken the time to critique my comments... I understand that you are more "accepting" than i am. Truth be told, those are my views, and as ridiculous or as stupid as you think i am for thinking that way, they are my views and nobody can change them. Just like how a person believes in a certain religion... And sorry to "bring the bible" into this... shit i'm not even christian. I meant to "bring in" mother nature.... Also i dont know why you brought "racism" into this.... Out of all my friends, maybe 3-4 are white/caucasian. I have about a dozen black friends, and the other 75% are hispanic or other. And one of my best friends is Asian. I am by no means racist. Yes, i do not like gays (again, for the millionth time, i don't hate them.... kolkiwolkie!!!)... but, i'm not "set out" to ruin their lives, either... so what does it matter what i think? And FYI, trancewave, i have been hit on a LOT more than 3 times as well... i just listed the 3 extremes. And the fact the same happened to you, only worse, and you still like gays, tells me that you're an admirable person... Only i can't for the life of me figure out why you've chosen to go and fight this crusade on here.... Truth be told i dont know why i did either. I'm not passionate about this subject.. But again, i think that MOST people had my views, and no one has the balls to say it. I'm not going to join the bandwagon and "pretend" that i think its fucked up how gays are treated. And did you notice, i was one of the ONLY people to NOT use the "f" word and "q" word?? You say that i posted absolute "rubbish" here..... i think the truth is, that i am correct, and its sad, but true. I don't know what kind of messed up family you grew up in, but in most families i've seen, the parents have a HUGE influence on their children. Ever wanted to be what your dad is when you grow up? ever wanted to throw a pass like your dad does? ever wanted to know as much about cars as your dad? ... as much about a professional sport? And how about a mom teaching you about the birds and the bees? Your mom consoling you after you got beat up at school that day, and you were too embarassed to tell your dad? Open your eyes, man... this isn't about "sexism" , or "a womans' place is in the home"....... its about which parent is more appropriate for what role...... each instance in life, i can GUARANTEE you that ONE parent would be more "cut out" for! This arguement is really down to individual opinion, so you cannot call me a "dumbass" for having them. Ok genius.... this is the way of mother nature... NOT me. Maybe you want to talk to whoever created mother earth, and created man & woman. That statement is brilliant. Again, don't be so naive man! If you've ever been "reading" my posts, you will have seen that i was always the FIRST person to state the religion is the cause of more deaths and wars than anything else ever..... AND i got severley flamed for saying that too. I erred by stating "bible" when i meant to mention Mother Nature. AND i'm not religious. so who cares? Again, more than 3 times... i only listed 3 extreme cases. Also, if you "just tell them you're straight", and they back off, then that's NOT aggressive. That's a walk in the park, my friend. Try coming down here... where they don't get the message until you have to call the police..... they keep saying they think you're playing "hard to get". BS Exactly.... so i can have my own views and think for myself, right? You are sounding to me like one of those pro-life activists.... So feckin concerned about the fetus, don't give a shit about the mother. I believe in pro-choice (pro-woman), not pro-life. I'd like to see one of these oh-so-vocal pro-lifers have one of those black-crack baby fetuses transplanted into their uteruses b/c the original mother has no money and probably would kill the baby, instead of killing doctors. What does this have to do with the topic? Well, i bet you'd be singing a VERY different tune if you had 2 dads.... or 2 moms. It's one thing to fight for equal rights, but its another to go overboard. Forgive me if i don't buy into all the happy-go-lucky tree-hugger stuff.... i like to have an opinion, my OWN opinion, and i'm not afraid to voice it. I almost wanted to say thanks for your opinion, but since most of it was a flame towards me, i'll result to saying "sawed off!", and i pity you, because you afraid of voicing your opinion b/c you don't want to look bad. -ABT-

LOL !!! Hey jus wanna say that I agree with everything u say ABT...ppl have become so PC these days that u labelled 'homophobic' just cause u don't believe that being gay is accepted. I think i'm a tolerent person and if someone came up to me and said that they were gay i wouldn't treat them any different from other ppl, but when I think about my true feeling about gay people i have to think of it in terms of how it would affect me persoanlly if someone I knew was gay. eg. If my dad or someone in my family told me that they were gay I would not be cool about it, why u ask ? Because at the root of it, I don't believe that u are born gay...u choose to be gay. i know it's not popular belief but hey theirs a reason why god created man and women (and i'm not refering to the bible).

PS. Don't even get me started on the abortion issue... I can't stand ppl who talk all sorts of crap about how fetous have rights when there are 13 year old un-wed mothers around giving birth to kids who will never get the proper love and care they need....what's the point of giving birth to a child only to have it grow up in a shitty environment...don't we have nuff problems with the world population growing without adding to it by having all these kids just because some nut jobs think they have rights....blah...how bout worrying about the 'living' ppl who are dying of starvation and war instead of worrying about something that has yet to see the light of day.

Go ahead and flame me ppl, i've spoken my mind and I prolly deserve it

___________________

"Hell is full of musical amateurs; music is the brandy of the damned."
~ George Bernard Shaw

quote:

i'm sorry that our (for the most part) flame-free thread is not "intelligent enough" for you to read.

Quite frankly some of the things which have been said in this thread have been nothing more then baseless, empty assertions. And in pointing this out what do i get from you? Nothing other then a statement which sounds like nothing more then a big "Yeah so what!". You don't deny my point or disagree with me.

And another point -- by mentioning the fact that some people have said what i consider to be some really silly things in this thread you seem to take this as an attack on *everyone* who has posted in this thread, which is wrong of course.

quote:

ly your comment that has NOTHING to do with this thread will add some "intelligence" to this already "lacking" thread.

My point has everything to do with the topic of "Why Men hate ******s!" Clearly the fact that the word Gay has become synonomous with bad is an indication of this "disease" which is prevrelent in the male heterosexual community. If you can't see the clear link there then that's your problem.

___________________
"Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all run around in a darkened room munching pills and listening to repetitive music."

quote:

..and where did that stuff start? .. In the schoolyard! Grown men don't go around calling bad things "gay". Kids do, however, in like 3rd to 6th grades!! the SAME ones who might make fun of a kid because both his parents are of the same sex? hmmmm

On the contrary i have friends between the ages of 20-24 years of age who refer to things as "Gay!". It's something i've seen a lot of in young adult males around my age. (I'm 22) It seems to be considered a "normal" way of speaking among many people. Personally it doesn't bother me but i've made a mental note to not use it, despite the fact that a lot of my mates use it natrually.

___________________
"Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all run around in a darkened room munching pills and listening to repetitive music."

quote:

Originally posted by Trancewave First I would like to respond to "UR DREAM GRL" About the bitchin'. I'm sorry that you think I'm just bitchin' over nothing. ABT made some remarks in his original post that I found very insensitive and I made a response. Now he has appologized for the inappropriateness of some comments and I have on countless occassions appologized to him for what seemed to be an overly harsh reaction. To me, that is progress. I found it laughable that I quoted your entire post and it consisted of 2 lines of insults. Don't take this the wrong way but if you have nothing more constructive and intelligent to add then I'm glad you have stayed out of it for as long as you have. Also I like to add that I have wasted way more space and time than I care for to respond to you. So in closing I like to say (in ABT's words) "sawed off!"

You have made some valid points, but it did sound like you were bitching for awhile there. Besides, you can't yell at Ur Dream Grl! She's the TA babe!

Oh yeah and Orbital is a schmuck.

___________________
My Dixie Wrecked!

quote:

Originally posted by Orbital Quite frankly some of the things which have been said in this thread have been nothing more then baseless, empty assertions.

ROFLMAO. You sound like one of those guys who criticizes every DJ's mixing abilities, but has never touched a turntable yourself

You critique the arguements of these two fellow's great debate, and you offer up an opinion as well that is nothing more than a baseless, empty assertion. If you don't have something intelligent to add to the topic, don't insult the others who are involved.

___________________
My Dixie Wrecked!

quote:

ROFLMAO. You sound like one of those guys who criticizes every DJ's mixing abilities, but has never touched a turntable yourself

Really? Well if Paul van Dyk scews up a mix am i not allowed to be dissapointed or critisise this. I'll just pretend it never happened then.

My comments were aimed directly at certain parties. You claim my main point is baseless and empty, well how pray tell is my point empty and baseless. I'll quite happily substantiate my position if needs be but i'd be interested to see how you think linking the use of the word gay to mean Bad is *not* an unerlying indication of the gerneral view that many heterosexual males have towards gay men and gays in general?

As for these 2 fellows bit, i really don't know what your talking about. There's been more then 2 people having their 2c worth here and i'm simply pointing out that i think some of the comments made have been just plain silly. Again you nor my previous "assailant" has not questioned the truth of that statement, all you've been doing is questioning my right to state the above.

___________________
"Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all run around in a darkened room munching pills and listening to repetitive music."

quote:

Originally posted by Kytracid Hmmm....It's very easy to take the high seat and say that people are being narrow minded but have u taken a momment to consider what kind of impact a child growing up with 2 same sex parents will have. The fact is that kids are cruel and the last thing a child needs is to be teased about how he has 2 dads or moms. If gay ppl want to marry that's okay, because they are not effecting anyone else except themselves but when they start having kids that's being unfair to the kids. The world is not an accepting place and it never will be...look at how many problems we already have, rasicm, bigamy, war..etc. Are u naive enough to think that in 20 or 30 years man kind will suddenly evole and realize that all people are basically the same ??? LOL if u do then your an idealist...the fact is that there will always be people who won't accept things that are different from the norm...and being gay or have a family which has 2 dads if different. Anyway I'm rambling...but the truth is that sometimes i feel that gay people get a little too excited about their gay pride and don't think about the consequences of their actions...that's why when it comes to gay people adopting childern I would have to say that I'm not in favor of it.

I agree that gay people (men, anyway..) tend to go a little overboard w/ the whole 'gay pride'. My response is: "So what? You like taking it in the ass." hehe.. not that I'm being anti-gay. but really.. who cares if their gay or not? I don't. A person is a person to me.
As for the acceptance of homosexuality..you may have a point. The human race as a whole is ignorant and unaccepting. But, on the other hand, the better part (I'm not totally sure, this is an assumption.) of the population has more or less accepted the fact that there are gay people in our society. I know few people that are still anti-gay. And those people are a generation behind. In 15-20 years, we'll have produced an entirely new generation, one that isn't so jaded and unaccepting. Are you going to teach your child that homosexuals are deviants? I sure as hell won't.. and w/ all this gay-pride crap (I use the word 'crap' in the kindest sense of the word ) going on, we can only go forward.

Now, for the matter of gay adoptions.. I'm rather torn. I agree that a child should have a normal life..hmm. I'm really caught here, I hadn't given this much thought up until now.
I really can't answer.. I say yes.. but then I say no.. I don't know!!


bse

___________________
Wave is to particle as zero is to one as bagpipes are to modem noises.

quote:

Originally posted by {b.s.e.} I agree that gay people (men, anyway..) tend to go a little overboard w/ the whole 'gay pride'. My response is: "So what? You like taking it in the ass." hehe.. not that I'm being anti-gay. but really.. who cares if their gay or not? I don't. A person is a person to me. As for the acceptance of homosexuality..you may have a point. The human race as a whole is ignorant and unaccepting. But, on the other hand, the better part (I'm not totally sure, this is an assumption.) of the population has more or less accepted the fact that there are gay people in our society. I know few people that are still anti-gay. And those people are a generation behind. In 15-20 years, we'll have produced an entirely new generation, one that isn't so jaded and unaccepting. Are you going to teach your child that homosexuals are deviants? I sure as hell won't.. and w/ all this gay-pride crap (I use the word 'crap' in the kindest sense of the word ) going on, we can only go forward. Now, for the matter of gay adoptions.. I'm rather torn. I agree that a child should have a normal life..hmm. I'm really caught here, I hadn't given this much thought up until now. I really can't answer.. I say yes.. but then I say no.. I don't know!! bse

Okay...this is how my true feeling about the gay issue. Even though a lot of people are tolerent of gay people it does not mean that they all think it is 'okay' to be gay. I'm not saying that gay people are freaks, but u have to admit that two same sex people have sex does not serve any evolutionary purpose. Have u ever seen 2 male dog humping each other ? The fact is that homosexuality is only seen in humans and no other animal...that to me means that it's not something that nature intended.

I don't have any problems with people saying that they are gay or they wanna be gay, that's fine because the truth is that there are so many weird people out there that being gay is not a big deal anymore. I'm more worried about the serial killers and rapists and child molesters out there. But if u want to know the true feelings about the gay issue ask yourself a simple question :

"What would u do if your kids/sister/parent told u that they were gay ?"

if your the sort of person who wouldn't have any problems with that then i guess u are a better person then me because I know I wouldn't be cool with it.


just my $.02

___________________

"Hell is full of musical amateurs; music is the brandy of the damned."
~ George Bernard Shaw

I'm on my way out.. but I'll have response ready for ya in a bit.

bse

___________________
Wave is to particle as zero is to one as bagpipes are to modem noises.

quote:

Originally posted by Kytracid Okay...this is how my true feeling about the gay issue. Even though a lot of people are tolerent of gay people it does not mean that they all think it is 'okay' to be gay. I'm not saying that gay people are freaks, but u have to admit that two same sex people have sex does not serve any evolutionary purpose. Have u ever seen 2 male dog humping each other ? The fact is that homosexuality is only seen in humans and no other animal...that to me means that it's not something that nature intended. I don't have any problems with people saying that they are gay or they wanna be gay, that's fine because the truth is that there are so many weird people out there that being gay is not a big deal anymore. I'm more worried about the serial killers and rapists and child molesters out there. But if u want to know the true feelings about the gay issue ask yourself a simple question : "What would u do if your kids/sister/parent told u that they were gay ?" if your the sort of person who wouldn't have any problems with that then i guess u are a better person then me because I know I wouldn't be cool with it. just my $.02

Ok. So.
It is true that 'tolerance' is different from 'acceptance'. [b]I, myself[b] accept gay people. Their being gay has no direct affect to me, so I could care less if they want to play bum darts.
I think that the progressive increase of homosexuality has a direct relation to our evolutionary status. We have hit a plateau in physical evolution, and I believe that we will only grow smarter, and there is certainly no need to increase our population. It also reflects our society, which is one of glutteny and pleasure (Much like Sodom and Gomorrah), and our intellect tells us 'if it feels good, do it.'
So really, who cares if someone is gay? If my son/daughter came out to me, I'd be surprised, perhaps a little shocked, but whatever.. they'll chose their life. I can't really help that.
ANd surprisingly enough, there have been documented cases of animal homosexuality. THis includes simians, rats and dogs, and God knows what else.
The idea of homosexuality confuses me to no end, I don't understand how one of your own sex can be sexually attractive to you.. *shrug* I guess I'm not gay.

So yeah..

pondering,

bse

___________________
Wave is to particle as zero is to one as bagpipes are to modem noises.

quote:

Originally posted by Trancewave ABT before I respond to you I would like to reply to 2 other people here. Hopefully it will become a little more clear. First I would like to respond to "UR DREAM GRL" About the bitchin'. I do believe that ABT and I (pretty much for the most part) have carried out our convo in a civilized and constructive manner. Just the fact that some people has already mentioned that they've been reading and have added some input as well as thanking us for our discussion means a great deal to me. I'm sorry that you think I'm just bitchin' over nothing. ABT made some remarks in his original post that I found very insensitive and I made a response. Now he has appologized for the inappropriateness of some comments and I have on countless occassions appologized to him for what seemed to be an overly harsh reaction. To me, that is progress. Somewhere along the lines we went off topic but these things are bound to happen due to the sensitive nature of the discussion. I don't know, maybe I found the comments he made in his original post to be insensitive moreso than most others would simply because for me it hits so much closer to home (with some of my gay friends). I don't see this kind of attitude towards gays that much around here where I'm from or around the core group of people I know (of course it's there but not as blatnant). Maybe we are a little more tolerant here than where you are from, I don't know. I have thanked ABT for his honesty for expressing his views. To be frank, I'm just about tired of this argument we are having as I'm sure ABT is as well. Like we said before, I find it odd that of all people the 2 of us are so engulfed in this heated discussion while neither one of us is really that passionate about the topic. But at the same time, I'm really glad we did have this discussion. The last time I checked, this is an open forum and I am free to respond to comments as I see fit. No one here is forcing you to read the thread. If you don't like it, then don't read (maybe it is you who should leave?)How is it that my opinion is any less valuable than ABT's? You obviously haven't read our comments thoroughly or you'd realize that although we disagree, at times our discussion have been amicable (with the occasional low blows ). If I feel that I want to discuss it with ABT then I will do so regardless of what you think . I found it laughable that I quoted your entire post and it consisted of 2 lines of insults. Don't take this the wrong way but if you have nothing more constructive and intelligent to add then I'm glad you have stayed out of it for as long as you have. Also I like to add that I have wasted way more space and time than I care for to respond to you. So in closing I like to say (in ABT's words) "sawed off!" Secondly, I'd like to respond to kolkiewolkie Sorry that it took so long for me to respond to your post although I've been meaning to do so.You've made a very fair assessment and I do agree with you. I re-read my comments and i can see how it can come off as harsh and for the billionth time I have made several apologies to ABT for coming out that way. I don't believe however that I've been trying to push my ideas onto ABT. On the contrary, I very much believe that you should never force your beliefs onto someone whether you think it's "right" or "wrong". I am very much against it. If it came off that way, and ABT did mentioned it, the intention was never there. He has not pushed his ideas on to me and neither have I. But I have made him realize that some of the comments he made were in fact inappropriate which he has appologized for. To me, that is more than I can ask for. ABT......... hmm, I said I worked in a summer camp with kids with same sex parent/companions that in no way refers to summer camps with children of same sex couples exclusively,(don't even know if anything like that exist).I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear there and for the misunderstanding nonetheless I am by no means whatsoever an "expert" . I'm glad you have read books on the subject and has enriched your mind and broaden your perspective of the world Have you been reading between the lines? how am I exactly contradicting myself? I said I'm glad someone with your views don't have any political stroke or else gay couples would not be allowed to adopt, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it. What does that have to do with with the fact that I won't stand for what I believe in? I don't see the correlation. If I'm not standing up for what I believe in then why exactly have I been sitting here typing all this for? I do believe firmly on everything I say and nothing is going to change that. I do believe that one person should think for themselves and not let what our society deem as 'normal' to be the way it it's got to be. Things are changing, in my view for the better. Thanx for realizing that the comparison was not called for. I probably would've never responded to your original post in the first place had you not drawn up the comparision. I would like to drop it there too. I said the kids are quite 'normal' and happy. You are bringing more statistics into this. My point is that your stats don't prove nothing to me in that particular case if that child is disguising his/her depression. You don't know for a fact and only assuming that the child is likely masking his/her sadness by appearing 'normal'. Catch my drift? I said SOME kids may carry more of an emotional burden means that I "open my eyes" and realize that it can happen, i never disagreed with you there. I never said that kids with same sex parents would NEVER have any emotional burden, to say that would be foolish. But you are assuming that they WILL be emotionally abused and traumatized based on your "studies" and that is just as equally foolish . I thought I have made it very clear, don't want to reiterate the whole thing but like I said it was upsetting to me because I find it quite insensitive and you agreed that it was uncalled for (hey your words) So you are telling me that you are not going by what you see in society as well and strictly only on what you learned in college and your studies? You'd probably guessed by now that yes, I do have a beef with psychological studies. For me, pschological studies do didly squat to prove any argument. I mean get real, so studies shows what something is more likely to happen doesn't mean it will turn out that way. You did agree with me that you have to take things on an individual case right? I go by what "feels right" ? that is almost laughable, you make it sound like I'm so naive. Like I said, I can only go by my experiences in life and to think for myself and prefer not to let a study dictate how I should behave or into believing that is the "truth". And exactly what is the truth anyways? The truth is that you can "guarantee" that kids growing up with same sex parents will have a much harder time in life? maybe they will, but nothing is certain and to say they will for sure go through life with emotional stress and trauma based on what you read is irresponsible. You can't guarantee anything. Of course except life, death , and taxes. So now that our government is allowing gay couples to adopt does that mean they would otherwise not have pass this legislation had they've been reading these studies? Your stance that "this is reality" so deal with it does not sit too well with me. I know that this is what is happening out there, the kids probably will have a harder time adjusting than most other kids (it might also be irrevelant) , but to use that as justification for disallowing gay adoption and that they are wanting too many rights simply because they want to adopt does not cut it with me. They are not given any extra special treatment, they just want to adopt for christ sakes. You are treating gay couples like they are a separate group and don't deserve the same rights as most 'normal ' people do. That somehow their kids will have a harder time than other kids and therefore they should not have that right to care for a child. Thank you for the kind comment about me Believe me, I'm not by any means giving the public more credit than it deserves. There has to be a start somewhere. If kids learn at an early age that it is 'ok' (in my view) to be gay and quite 'normal' than they would not be harassing others about it would they? I agree with you that we are not there yet and we have a long way to go, but we are seeing some progress. Take for example it wasn't too long ago that on television (even as recently as last year) that it was considered 'inappropriate' to show gay couples kissing on camera. In fact it was never shown, even in talk shows when a gay couple would kiss the cameras would immediately pan to the audience. Now we see it all the time on television (gays kissing and displaying signs of affection) and not just on prime time only. (I'm speaking in terms of north american television, don't know how it is in other countries) So I'm saying if kids see this all the time, some time down the road this would not be an issue if they see the gay lifestyle as "normal". I know that we have a very long way to go but it is starting and we are moving a right direction. I am in no way trying to make you agree with me that it is ok to be gay. Exactly, and why'd you think that is so? Because we as a society has not yet fully embraced the gay lifestyle completely into our society. Now, this might just be wishful thinking here but if we do (and it's starting slowly) incorporate the gay lifestyle in our society and view it as normal with no prejudice than maybe in the future a child of same sex parents would not have that burden to deal with. We are actually seeing it happen albeit very slowly but we are seeing it more prevelant in our society like through the media for example. You can never eliminate all prejudice, it will exist in some form or another. I know that. But at least it can get to a point where it's more tolerable and become more socially accepted.

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH,
DUDE YOU TALK TOO MUCH, SHUT UP!
YOU'RE WRONG, PERIOD!!

AND YOU CALL THAT "NOT BITCHING??" LOLOL

JUST SHUT UP.

quote:

Originally posted by Master Bates You have made some valid points, but it did sound like you were bitching for awhile there. Besides, you can't yell at Ur Dream Grl! She's the TA babe! Oh yeah and Orbital is a schmuck.

hahah, I love this post,
Awww, that was nice what you said about my "good" friend Dream grl.


Cyaaaaa
YBEEE

LOL, yellowbee. Normally, your thought provoking comments would just beg me to do even more "bitchin" just to piss you off if nothing else but....

in light of the tragedy that is happening in New York right now I'm especially not in the mood or think it's "appropriate" for any kind of senseless flaming (on my part anyways)at this time. Everything seems so insignificant at the moment. Especially this debate.

My condolences to the victims and their immediate families aboard flight 587.