quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 And you would know right off the bat that these "brothas" are on welfare, right? And how would you know that exactly?

Well, watching them whip out a roll of food stamps and then drive off in the pimp-mobile.

Regardless of whether they are on welfare, when you drive through the slums and see shoddy houses with nice cars in the driveway, you should pick up on the fact that one of these things is not like the other.

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 And you would know right off the bat that these "brothas" are on welfare, right? And how would you know that exactly?

Actually, are these people that :TVD: and Shakka talking about actually on welfare/benefits, or are they just poor? Like you say, you can't tell if someone is on benefits but it is perhaps easier to tell if they are poor (area for example). If those two are refering to poor people then that is missing the point as we are discussing the effects of taking away benefits (I assume?) cos it is people without jobs who get benefits.

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Originally posted by Shakka Well, watching them whip out a roll of food stamps and then drive off in the pimp-mobile.

have you seriously ever seen that happening?

Even if you have, it cant have been many times. There are people who abuses the system, but that should not go out over everyone.

and as all the others already pointed out, just because you are in a bad neighourhood doesnt mean that you are on welfare, hence you can buy what the fuck you want to (if you rather have a nice car than a nice house, then thats their decision).

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Originally posted by St_Andrew have you seriously ever seen that happening?

Absolutely. We used to by a car every year in college for homecoming. I remember one year we bought a limo with a glovebox full of foodstamps.

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Even if you have, it cant have been many times. There are people who abuses the system, but that should not go out over everyone.

True, but I'm not claiming that it's pervasive, but it is absolutely out there. It's not too hard to manipulate the system if you really want to, provided you can live with your own guilty conscience(sp?).

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and as all the others already pointed out, just because you are in a bad neighourhood doesnt mean that you are on welfare, hence you can buy what the fuck you want to (if you rather have a nice car than a nice house, then thats their decision).

I'm not claiming that's the case. I said on the previous page that I am not foolish enough to think it's something that happens 100% of the time. Not even 50% of the time. But it happens, and I bet it happens more than you realize.

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Originally posted by Shakka Absolutely. We used to by a car every year in college for homecoming. I remember one year we bought a limo with a glovebox full of foodstamps.

Was this before the mid-90s reforms took place? Most states now do not use actual stamps, they've been replaced by magnetic strip cards, which are much better regulated.

quote:

True, but I'm not claiming that it's pervasive, but it is absolutely out there. It's not too hard to manipulate the system if you really want to, provided you can live with your own guilty conscience(sp?). I'm not claiming that's the case. I said on the previous page that I am not foolish enough to think it's something that happens 100% of the time. Not even 50% of the time. But it happens, and I bet it happens more than you realize.

Absolutely there's some misuse and corruption, but at least TvD was saying that the poor do not need our help because they are doing fine and taking our money, which is why our taxes are high. Especially since welfare reform, it has been much more strict and more difficult to obtain benefits, even denying many people who are not trying to cheat the system. The fact is that welfare programs are not why our taxes are high to begin with anyway.

If anyone can show what the figures are on people in the hood driving fancy cars and abusing the welfare rolls, I'd like to see them, because that's not what I've seen firsthand from people actually obtaining benefits and considering the agencies working with these people have a shortage of funding and only a limited capacity, they take significant steps to make sure those getting services follow guidlines.

___________________
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Let's also not forget that sometimes money that is used to purchase the "pimpmobile" is not taxable (declared, legit.et al) income. Thus people would be eligible for food stamps and welfare benefits, in the eyes of the govt.

1st hand info: I was behind a gentleman in a grocery line, he was paying for his purchase with food stamps (which is ok with me). He gets very upset at having to pay for an item which was taxable. I looked into his wallet, and I saw 100s, 50s, and 20s. He could have easily payed with cash, what gives?

Does anyone remember Tupac? When he showed up to get his welfare check in a limo? The checks, from the record label came in before the Department of Social Services ever caught on.
Royalty checks are not subject to withholding tax, nor are many investments (K1s are not always reported) and can be hidden without IRS knowledge.

If some abuse of the welfare system is enough to warrant elimination or massive, tough crackdowns, should the fact that some people who are wrongly convicted warrant the elimination of the penal system or a much stiffer burden of proof on the part of the state? Perhaps the complete elimination of the death penalty? Common sense tells me that these should only become issues if they are systemic problems.

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Retro ...

quote:

Originally posted by occrider If some abuse of the welfare system is enough to warrant elimination or massive, tough crackdowns, should the fact that some people who are wrongly convicted warrant the elimination of the penal system or a much stiffer burden of proof on the part of the state? Perhaps the complete elimination of the death penalty? Common sense tells me that these should only become issues if they are systemic problems.

Hell yeah!

We are constantly striving to improve our criminal justice system, but what is being done to correct, or at least attempt to correct, flaws in the welfare system? I think there are problems with both. I wasn't advocating eliminating welfare altogether, but clearly we spend too much on programs and every dollar that is wasted on the margin that can be saved is a step in the right direction.

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Originally posted by Shakka We are constantly striving to improve our criminal justice system, but what is being done to correct, or at least attempt to correct, flaws in the welfare system?

What exactly has been improved? I've seen just as many changes to the judicial system as I have seen in the welfare system. In other words, I haven't seen any tangible changes at all . But I agree with you on principle.

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Retro ...

quote:

Originally posted by occrider What exactly has been improved? I've seen just as many changes to the judicial system as I have seen in the welfare system. In other words, I haven't seen any tangible changes at all . But I agree with you on principle.

I guess I'm thinking more from the prosecution standpoint. Improvements in science, technology and the analysis from them have enabled for more accurate prosecution of criminals. I suppose it's mostly technological improvements(DNA analysis for example), but it has certainly helped. Granted, there is always room for improvement, but I think the system is in much better shape than it was just 10 years ago.

So why haven't taxes & government expenditures gone down considering the welfare rolls have been reduced by more than half over the last decade (the end of AFDC)? Maybe because means tested programs aren't the reason our taxes are high?

The court thing has something to do with it though, since the prison population is now over 2 million. That means 2 million people who broke the law are getting free meals & shelter for breaking the law, many of which are in for minor drug offenses. Not to mention that these people also require costly security that is more of a burden than any average poor person would require from the state. Considering the workload that public defenders carry, I don't think the system has really been reformed.

Anyway, back to welfare, the urban poor are not the majority of recipients and it still seems that's what's being focused on here as why welfare programs are a problem and are abused. The percentage of actual abuse in the system still is within a margin of 1 - 100% in the argument for further reform. If it were seriously near 20% I would certainly be in favor of further reform as well, but where is the evidence of this? It just seems like the argument is being simplified to "my taxes are high because I've seen a couple of people in black urban neighborhoods that had money and may have been cheating the system" which is an update of the Reagan "welfare queen image." The reality is most welfare recipients live in average towns, not the hood.

___________________
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Thurs May 15: Influence @ Tini Martini w/ Kris B. vs. Nosmo, Rikler & Mike Palmeri
Thurs June 5: Under the Influence @ Tini Martini w/Mathias Matthew, Jack Kim & more TBA

quote:

Originally posted by wolverine16 The reality is most welfare recipients live in average towns, not the hood.

...putting on my devil's advocate coat for a sec...


If you have people with below average incomes living in average towns, maybe there is a problem with living beyond their means? I don't want to imply that I think they should be herded up and placed in low-income housing, that's certainly not my intent. Just sayin...

Yes, I know. I'm insensitive. As I've said many times before, I have no problem having a percentage of my income going to certain programs and whatnot, but I'd much prefer to do it on my terms. I made the money, I should have the say in where it goes. It's not the government's money. They've already got their hands too deep in my pockets.