quote:

Originally posted by TheVrk You're sad

why?

Cause i dont believe in the same thing as you?

God is an arbitrary concept. An arbitrary concept is a concept that has no roots in reality.

Let me explain.

Knowledge is hierarchical in structure. You have to learn how to add and subtract before you can even attempt calculus. In chemistry nothing makes sense without first understanding that matter is made up of particles.

All knowledge can be reduced to sensory evidence. The origins of all knowledge can be reduced to reality. An idea is considered to be true if it corresponds to reality. An idea is said to be false if it contradicts reality. Reality is the testing ground.

All that man can perceive is reality. Therefore all that man can know is that which exists. After all, knowledge can only be of reality.

If something were to exist outside of mans reality, he couldn’t know anything about it. The entity that’s outside the scope of his reality would be outside the scope of his perception and therefore outside the scope of his knowledge. All that man can perceive is that which exists.

Logically, an entity that is beyond existence/universe is technically a contradiction. Existence is defined by man. All that exists is all that exists to him. To speak about entities beyond the scope of mans perception is an error in thinking called stolen concept. Stolen concept fallacy is basically stealing a concept from its context and applying it to another context that doesn’t equally fit. It’s copy/pasting a concept from its context to another. The error is that concepts are defined within their context. Removing the context is removing its meaning.

For example if I said to you that just a moment ago the universe paused for a hundred years. Time stopped for a hundred years and everything was at a standstill. That’s an error in thinking because the interval of time the universe stood still was measured in time. Time is a measurement of motion. I am 25 years old because I have survived 25 revolutions around the sun.

Another example, last night the universe doubled in size. Everything doubled in size. It wasn’t noticeable because even our ruler sticks doubled in size. Literally every thing doubled. This is another error. Doubling requires a reference point. It’s a relative concept (read about the theory of relativity). Doubling to what? If the universe (every thing) doubled in size, then nothing doubled. You see?

You see how man can make mistakes in thinking?

Getting back to the topic at hand, man can only know of things that he can perceive. What we can perceive we call existence. Man can only know of that which exists.

The truth is we don’t know anything about god. God has been characterized as being beyond our perception and understanding. If god is beyond our perception, then how did you verify that he is beyond our perception? If god is beyond our ability to understand and reason, then how did you reason out that nothing can be known about him?

The concept of “god” is full of contradictions.

No one can explain god because his very existence can’t be proven (reduced to sensory evidence)

Good post, i totally agree. I dont say that there is not a god, but i dont believe in one. Cause i simply cannot believe in anything that is not backed by any proof. If the bible were a perfect book without any flaws, and if everything in there made sense etc, then i could believe in christianity without having actual proof of god actually excisitng. Now that is not the case and i cant believe in christianity.

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Originally posted by EvilDust Funny how most of the scientists that have explained the universe still believed in God.

An interesting read (written by Dr. Henry F. Schaefer):

Stephen Hawking, the Big Bang, and God

Dr. "Fritz" Schaefer is the Graham Perdue Professor of Chemistry and the director of the Center for Computational Quantum Chemistry at the University of Georgia. He has been nominated for the Nobel Prize and was recently cited as the third most quoted chemist in the world. "The significance and joy in my science comes in the occasional moments of discovering something new and saying to myself, 'So that's how God did it!' My goal is to understand a little corner of God's plan." --U.S. News & World Report, Dec. 23, 1991.

(Btw.. God definitely made man -- too much evidence (not proof) shows great support for a creationist/Intelligent Design theory. But I do believe that it definitely all does come down to Faith, it's your choice to decide to love God back or not)

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Originally posted by Max Q An interesting read (written by Dr. Henry F. Schaefer): Stephen Hawking, the Big Bang, and God

Im stuck on my dads comp right now, but im interested in/eager to read this artictle! sounds intriging.

sounds like a good time-filler for when i get to work tomorrow morning!

-jem-

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quote:

Originally posted by Max Q (Btw.. God definitely made man -- too much evidence (not proof) shows great support for a creationist/Intelligent Design theory. But I do believe that it definitely all does come down to Faith, it's your choice to decide to love God back or not)

What proof?

What about all the proof that shows the opposite?

Whether you believe that there is a good or not there is only one answer to this question God (as we identify him) is a product of man. Here's my thinking...
IF there is an all knowing and powerful god who elected to reveal itself to humanity that god would know enough that it cannot reveal it's true nature as we are incapable of understanding anything we cannot in some way relate to. Subsequently, god would need to reveal itself to each human cultural group according to a frame of reference which that cultural group could understand. For the Hebrews god revealed itself as Yaweh, a stern, fatherly, caretaker, that ruled over the people. Additionally, it revealed itself as one entity which mirrors the monastic politics of the region. Being ruled by one leader is something the Hebrews were used to and could accept. Building a world in seven days made sense to them because it took time to make things in their lives too... compared to trying to explain the big bang theory and evolution to iron aged people. As god revealed himself as Yaweh, the diety Yaweh he became god's answer to what the Hebrews needed as a diety. In this way, even if a god does exist, Yaweh is a creation of man.
If there is not god then clearly we created the entire concept of a god in order to fulfill some missing aspect in human existance.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by EvilDust Funny how most of the scientists that have explained the universe still believed in God.

they have ???? holy sheet that's news to me

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Originally posted by St_Andrew What proof? What about all the proof that shows the opposite?

I think you misunderstood my post -- i said there's substantial evidence for the Intelligent Design theory (remember, evidence is not the same as proof)

I'll never understand the incessant need for people to prove or disprove the 'existence' of God. Are people so scared of having their beliefs challenged that they need other people to agree with their views to make them more true? Give me a fucking break already. Science and faith go hand in hand in my opinion. And I also think it takes great maturity to accept that there isn't a quantitative answer for everything. That's what faith is, and from faith comes humility...something a lot more of us could do with to make us better as humans.

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Originally posted by jennypie Science and faith go hand in hand in my opinion.

I agree with this point. Science is simply the newest religion. Like all religions, one must at some point make a leap of faith with science as it cannot be proven correct.... even physics breaks down at plank time, which means trying to explain anything before that must be done through faith. The universe doesn't function according to the laws that we "know" to be "true" unless there is a huge amount of mass out there somewhere that cannot be detected in any way shape or form.... believing in this takes faith.

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quote:

Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down