quote:

Originally posted by zig A short list of questions for our American world helpers...... 1. Which is the only country in the world to have dropped bombs on over twenty countries since 1945? 2. Which is the only country to have to have used nuclear weapons to take the lives of thousands of civilians? 3. Which country was responsible for a car bomb which killed 80 civilians in Beirut in 1985, making it the most lethal terrorist bombing in the middle east? 4. Which countrys illegal bombing of Libya in 1986 was described by the UN Legal Committee as a classic case of "terrorism". 5. Which country rejected the order of the International Court of Justice to terminate "its unlawful use of force" against Nicuragua in 1986, and then vetoed a UN security council resolution calling on all states to observe international law. 6. Which country was accused by a UN sponsered truth commission of providing "direct" and indirect support for acts of genocide in Guatamala in the 1980s. 7. Which country unilaterally withdrew from the anti ballistic missile treaty in 2001. 8 Which country renounced the efforts to negotiate a verification process for the biological weapons convention and brought an international conference to a halt in 2001. 9. Which country prevented the UN from curbing the gun trade at an arms conference in 2001. 10. Which country apart from Somalia has refused to ratify the UN convention on the rights of the child (For military reasons i might add). You could also ask another question here....which is the only western country to allow the death penalty to apply to chrildren. 11. Which is the only G7 country to not sign the 1997 mine ban treaty, forbidding the use of landmines. 12. Which is the only G7 country to have voted against the creation of the International Criminal Court in 1998. 13. Which was the only other country to join with Israel in opposing in 1987 a General Assembly resolution condemning international terrorism. 14. And lastly which country refuses to fully pay its debts to the UN but reserves the right to veto United Nation Resolutions. hhhmmmmmm......quite a list.....i could add much more.....

You really think that list will be able to stand up against peer review? FFS it's almost as bad as the Kerry is a flip-flopper list. Not to mention it's horribly dated.

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Retro ...

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r The european colonizer had no fucking business being here? What?? Good greif. What a convenient and selective history we have. Yes, HUGE pieces of land. Do a google and check it out yourself.

You obviously don't understand what the guy who started this thread had in mind. The very conception of this nation began with massacre, bloodshed and opression. And not much has really changed since then when you look at US foreighn policy.

You don't get it do you. "HUGE pieces of land"? Every inch of this soil belongs to the natives it was stolen from.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r I've said it before and I'll say it again; it was the era of exploration and colonization. To put a finer point on it; there was nothing wrong with doing what needed to be done at that point in time. Wealth was driven by LAND and the annexing of new lands. THAT was my point of answering the driveling question regarding the Native Americans (god knows why they even entered the equation).

That doesn't justify shit and it was COMPLETELY WRONG. You're a pretty sick individual if you think there's nothing wrong with genocide, oppresion and stealing other peoples resources and land.

EDIT:

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Native Americans (god knows why they even entered the equation).[/B]

Are you really that naive/biased?

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by zig A short list of questions for our American world helpers...... 1. Which is the only country in the world to have dropped bombs on over twenty countries since 1945? 2. Which is the only country to have to have used nuclear weapons to take the lives of thousands of civilians? 3. Which country was responsible for a car bomb which killed 80 civilians in Beirut in 1985, making it the most lethal terrorist bombing in the middle east? 4. Which countrys illegal bombing of Libya in 1986 was described by the UN Legal Committee as a classic case of "terrorism". 5. Which country rejected the order of the International Court of Justice to terminate "its unlawful use of force" against Nicuragua in 1986, and then vetoed a UN security council resolution calling on all states to observe international law. 6. Which country was accused by a UN sponsered truth commission of providing "direct" and indirect support for acts of genocide in Guatamala in the 1980s. 7. Which country unilaterally withdrew from the anti ballistic missile treaty in 2001. 8 Which country renounced the efforts to negotiate a verification process for the biological weapons convention and brought an international conference to a halt in 2001. 9. Which country prevented the UN from curbing the gun trade at an arms conference in 2001. 10. Which country apart from Somalia has refused to ratify the UN convention on the rights of the child (For military reasons i might add). You could also ask another question here....which is the only western country to allow the death penalty to apply to chrildren. 11. Which is the only G7 country to not sign the 1997 mine ban treaty, forbidding the use of landmines. 12. Which is the only G7 country to have voted against the creation of the International Criminal Court in 1998. 13. Which was the only other country to join with Israel in opposing in 1987 a General Assembly resolution condemning international terrorism. 14. And lastly which country refuses to fully pay its debts to the UN but reserves the right to veto United Nation Resolutions. hhhmmmmmm......quite a list.....i could add much more.....

Those are valid questions. And the rest of you guys don't have the balls/are too self-righteous/blinded by nationalism to answer them.

Answer: USA

EDIT: Thanks for bringing up these questions zig and reminding Americans of the actions of their own Goverment.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

ADD some more because some those i have never heard about before so keep on going to see if u can surprise me some more

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z You obviously don't understand what the guy who started this thread had in mind. The very conception of this nation began with massacre, bloodshed and opression. And not much has really changed since then when you look at US foreighn policy.

The U.S. wasn't worried about foreign policies when they were dealing with problems in their own land and other countries' foreign policies. ie. Mexico and Britian.

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You don't get it do you. "HUGE pieces of land"? Every inch of this soil belongs to the natives it was stolen from.

Ever heard of a 'reserve'?
They house Native Americans who wanted to secede themselves from the rest of the world. There are lots, especially here in Canada.

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That doesn't justify shit and it was COMPLETELY WRONG. You're a pretty sick individual if you think there's nothing wrong with genocide, oppresion and stealing other peoples resources and land. EDIT: Are you really that naive/biased?

Biased? Why because I speak the truth?
I understand where you're coming from. Nobody in their right mind would do what was done in the past in today's world; I agree 100%.
The fact of the matter is, it happened, get over it.
Was it wrong? It depends on which end of the time scale we're looking at it from.
Those were the times and that's what was done.
It's not like we can go back in time and change it; deal with it, learn from it and never repeat it.
People and countries are going to make mistakes but don't forever chastize them doing what they thought was right at the time.
Regret will do it's job without the dogmatic finger pointing.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Ever heard of a 'reserve'? They house Native Americans who wanted to secede themselves from the rest of the world. There are lots, especially here in Canada.

Yeah well here in the US the reserves really suck and they need to make casinos in order to make $$

@Yoepus: Ok, now I understand what your list is supposed to say. I definately do not agree with all being examples of the people crying out for help and getting it - benevolent style. But leaving that aside, I think that you managed to give me my concrete example (the Balkans).

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Originally posted by Yoepus Lets not get into "the people" definition problem, as debating definitions is never fun. For sake of argument I'm saying "the people" are either a majority or a large influential population of the country and/or the government repersenting (or not repersenting) said people. Obviously there are always dissenters and its never "all the people". ... I don't want to make this a who is the peoples/what is a democracy/legit government etc debate, because that would be endless... as above lets just stick to a broad definition. I don't think it disuades the point.

This debate is either very important or totally irrelevant, depending on what exactly it is that you US-patriots are complaining about when you say that "they want to be able to dictate the terms of the aid they receive. i.e. make the U.S. their personal bitch until they get what they want, then stab the U.S. in the back when all is done and remind the world how much they hated the U.S. in the first place"
(quoting Shakka, as he seemed to be the most elaborate one on this topic)? Is it

A) Whatever we do *some people* are going to complain, or
B) There's people who will ask for help and those *same people*, once helped out, will complain about the US for helping them?

If it's "A", then the debate above is irrelevant, and you're of course right. There can be no pleasing of everyone. If it's "B", however, then it becomes essential to establish that it is the same people, who asked for the help, which are now complaining (e.g. it was Saddam who asked for help in fighting Iran, not the Iraqis demonstrating against the US right now, so you cannot acuse anyone of backstabbing you).
I've tried to discern whether you're complaining about "A" or "B" from the US-patriot posts in this thread, but I cannot. So, consequently, I cannot agree that that the issue of who "the people" are is irrelevant just yet.

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Originally posted by Shakka In all honesty, I'm surprised you even had the gall to go there.

I don't accept political correctness as a valid argument. Sorry if that offends you.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z That doesn't justify shit and it was COMPLETELY WRONG. You're a pretty sick individual if you think there's nothing wrong with genocide, oppresion and stealing other peoples resources and land.

got to agree with this. you cant justify something that is clearly wrong in retrospect by saying that it was ok at the time.

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Originally posted by trancaholic I don't accept political correctness as a valid argument. Sorry if that offends you.

None taken, I just didn't think it was really that much of a debatable issue.

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Originally posted by zig 5. Which country rejected the order of the International Court of Justice to terminate "its unlawful use of force" against Nicuragua in 1986, and then vetoed a UN security council resolution calling on all states to observe international law.

to be fair thats one of the most heavily critiised judgements in the history of the icj..and Nicaragua were also using unlawful force

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Originally posted by metalgearsolid Yeah well here in the US the reserves really suck and they need to make casinos in order to make $$

Those casinos which generate substantial income and are not taxable. Sounds like a sweet deal to me.

http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/hr...nfo/gambind.htm

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Can states tax Indian gaming? States cannot tax Indian gambling. The federal law specifically prohibits states from imposing taxes or fees on Indian gambling, except for fees that the tribe agrees to. These fees are intended to compensate the state for its costs in performing inspections and other regulation under the tribal-state compact. In other words, states cannot raise general revenue by taxing Indian gambling. States do have the right to negotiate agreements with tribes under which the tribe makes payments to the state in return for the state's agreement to maintain a tribal monopoly on casino gambling. Under such an agreement Connecticut tribes paid the state over $280 million in fiscal 1999 from its slot machine revenue from two casinos. Income earned by employees at Indian casinos, as well as casino winnings, are taxable if the employee or winner is a non-Indian, but the casino does not withhold state taxes on either winnings or wages. Income earned at an Indian casino by reservation residents is nontaxable by the state.