quote:

Originally posted by NomadaNare At this point in my life I'm not into religion. I was actually just having this conversation the other day with some of my friends and I've finally figured out what I think. I believe in extremes and contradictions. At its core everything is either black or white, dead or alive, on or off, one or zero, good or bad. But your wondering well what about fuzzy logic eh? I say that (if you haven't geussed it) everything inbetween is a mixture of the two extremes. Just like there can be black and white, with enough black and white you get grey. With enough 1's and 0's there comes the number 7 or 2 or 865. With enough good and enough bad there becomes neutrality (like sweden). So in the end because of the convenient construction of numbers, everything eventually comes down to chance and probability and everyone is insanely highly improbable but yet the most infinitely probable event because low and behold we all still exist. Here's where contradictions comes in. Everything matters and yet doesn't matter at the same time. In less cryptic terms everything one does has some effect on the universe, but yet the universe is so big and well... cosmic, not only are the effects not felt directly, but they may not even be felt at all, so you matter but at the same time you don't. The two contradictions present a marriage of extremes. As for God, he is a product of chance. Just as god could be some giant guy floating up in the clouds saying "hey lil humans do this!" we could all be fallen dieties as scientology suggests. Who knows?

*takes weed away from you*

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax *takes weed away from you*

Surprisingly I wasn't smoking weed but contemplating the murder of my uncle while coming up with that theory. As for D-res, if I had to chose one, I would say that I would chose the whole evolution/science thing but not scientology. I'm agnostic/atheist because I just can't see where god would come from. If he has made us, then who made him? If he's all powerful, who's omnipotent enough to make god? It eventually gets to a point where there has to be an infinite number of infinitely powerful beings; all of them claiming to be god. It reminds me of a brief exchange between sir arthur edddington and some anonymous old lady the end result being "it's turtles all the way down." If you say that nobody made god, he always was and always will be, then why can't that be any different for human beings? But as I said before everything's up to chance so I could be very very wrong and as a result I officially straddle the fence. I don't deny the existence of god I just say he's very improbable.

quote:

Originally posted by NomadaNare Surprisingly I wasn't smoking weed but contemplating the murder of my uncle while coming up with that theory. As for D-res, if I had to chose one, I would say that I would chose the whole evolution/science thing but not scientology. I'm agnostic/atheist because I just can't see where god would come from. If he has made us, then who made him? If he's all powerful, who's omnipotent enough to make god? It eventually gets to a point where there has to be an infinite number of infinitely powerful beings; all of them claiming to be god. It reminds me of a brief exchange between sir arthur edddington and some anonymous old lady the end result being "it's turtles all the way down." If you say that nobody made god, he always was and always will be, then why can't that be any different for human beings? But as I said before everything's up to chance so I could be very very wrong and as a result I officially straddle the fence. I don't deny the existence of god I just say he's very improbable.

ahh the turtle story... i remember reading that in one of my books by Stephen Hawking. I believe it was "the universe in a nutshell" but it may have been the one before that.

Although at first it was like... what a crazy old coot, i definitily see the symbolic side of that statement.

This thread and the "post here" one are the only ones keeping me awake or atleast keeping me from drinkin my bottle of 151 all by myself

someone keep posting here so i can continue to debate and feel sorta intellectual... i wanna put my supposed 152 IQ to the test

quote:

Originally posted by NomadaNare Surprisingly I wasn't smoking weed but contemplating the murder of my uncle while coming up with that theory.

dude just dont make an emotional appeal to me, that theory is still kind of bullsit, and unless its like some crazy Marxist philosophy about conflict and dichotomies...this isnt anything new. Conflict and synthesis are common philosophical doctrines, and nothing crazy. If , indeed, the death of your uncle sparked this thought, I *am* interested in what your process was. Because...If he died, that extreme should necessarily have met with an equal life extreme (birth) and created something. unless you personally were involved withh the birth of your uncles anti-death, I dont really see a whole lot of relevance, or purpose to your theory.

quote:

I don't deny the existence of god I just say he's very improbable.

Is it more improbable than you evolving from ooze in this one galaxy, of which there are 10^10 (roughly) and in each galaxy there are 10^10 (roughly) stars with solar systems.

Im not saying that you should believe in God, just that your argument isnt really...logical. Just admit you dont believe in God simply because...You dont believe in God. Evidence for or to the contrary is impossible to find.

quote:

Originally posted by NomadaNare I'm agnostic/atheist

theres quite a difference imo... do you know the dif?

quote:

Originally posted by NomadaNare I don't deny the existence of god I just say he's very improbable.

then you're leaning toward agnostic.

See i dont deny his existance. Im the type of person that relies on proof. Now since i cant prove one way or another, i cant possibly deny his existance, thus, im agnostic.

athiests striaght up say, "there is no god."

I was brought up religious, but i chose my own path. I dont know how to explain why i dont "think" there's a god, but it just doesnt feel right to me. somehow all the scientific theories, while far-fetched, just make more sense.

seems like a weak arguement, i know, but like i said, i cant prove he/she/it doesnt exist so i remain sort of... neutral on the issue, although i love debating it because i have an open mind and i can be swayed either way, depending on how solid of an arguement someoen presents...

quote:

dude just dont make an emotional appeal to me

I wasn't really trying to I was just telling you what I was doing when it happened. Geez, a lil self absorbed eh?

quote:

that theory is still kind of bullshit... Because...If he died, that extreme should necessarily have met with an equal life extreme (birth) and created something unless you personally were involved withh the birth of your uncles anti-death, I dont really see a whole lot of relevance, or purpose to your theory.

Well Orbax, if my argument is bullshit, please tell me in minute detail why, and I well try as best as I can to tell what I think, but it seems as if you don't understand what I'm trying to say. I didn't say that there had to be a a equal and opposite reaction, I was simply saying that there could be.

quote:

Is it more improbable than you evolving from ooze in this one galaxy, of which there are 10^10 (roughly) and in each galaxy there are 10^10 (roughly) stars with solar systems.

So what's more improbable, having something that might have a one in 10^20 (roughly) chance of evolving or something simply popping in out of 0 or even better being created by something much more powerful which also came from nowhere? I would guess the former.

quote:

Just admit you dont believe in God simply because...You dont believe in God. Evidence for or to the contrary is impossible to find

I never said I didn't believe in God, I said if I had to pick, i would choose the one you read about. And in fact we actually said the same thing "Who knows?" I just choose to support my decision with something based on a lil bit of logic

quote:

Originally posted by NomadaNare I wasn't really trying to I was just telling you what I was doing when it happened. Geez, a lil self absorbed eh?

no, logical. Why would you tell me that PREMISE, without having any logical conlcusion based off of the fact that you told me. Ok, fine, your uncle died, how does that make your argument ANY more logical. My point. Its your turn to stop seeing this as personal. Im telling you not to make emotional appeals in a futile attempt at induction.

quote:

Well Orbax, if my argument is bullshit, please tell me in minute detail why, and I well try as best as I can to tell what I think, but it seems as if you don't understand what I'm trying to say. I didn't say that there had to be a a equal and opposite reaction, I was simply saying that there could be.

I said that you havent said anything that wasnt said by many people in multiple times. With, added on to that, that your previous emotional appeal in no way legitimized or proved your statement of a life defined by clashes of opposites.

quote:

I would guess the former.

Yes, you would. Not surprising at all.

quote:

I never said I didn't believe in God, I said if I had to pick, i would choose the one you read about. And in fact we actually said the same thing "Who knows?" I just choose to support my decision with something based on a lil bit of logic

well thats my point, Im not saying you shouldnt believe the things you do, you shouldnt believe in there being No God, based simply on the fact of your uncle dying and you thinking that dichotomies exist. Im sorry and all, but I dont quite see how your pretty much neo-platonist meets Gnostic philosophy stems from any of your premises. They may have sparked it, but I dont see any real progression from premise to conclusion, and im confused at the lack of linkage or conclusion from said linkage.

my thoughts = orbax should be a lawyer or a psychiatrist or something

-debate skillz
-intellect
-knowledge
-big words i dont understand

j/k on last one....

quote:

Im telling you not to make emotional appeals in a futile attempt at induction

Like i said before, if I was looking for "induction" as you say, I would have included that little tid bit of info in my first post. It's almost as if I would of said, "Surprisingly I wasn't smoking weed but painting while coming up with that theory". Like I said before, I was just telling you what I was doing.

quote:

They may have sparked it, but I dont see any real progression from premise to conclusion, and im confused at the lack of linkage or conclusion from said linkage.

My activity at the time had nothing to do with it, I'd kind of been thinking of it for a long time now. I really forgot what it stemmed from.

just wanted to clear that up.

i'm too tired to argue my points effectivly tonight, but all i'm going to say is scientology is a joke, just like most religions, even christianity, although i belive in jesus, god and the whole crew, i think "organized" churches/religions are all corrupted in their own way, maybe not in corrupt, but they all "know" that their religion is the only one that will get you into heaven. my religion says "if you don't belive in jesus, you'll go to hell" and i refuse to belive that, think of people that are missinformed, but are still nice/wonderful people that have done no harm to anyone in their life, and they're going to hell because they wern't brought up christian?

quote:

Originally posted by BTG my religion says "if you don't belive in jesus, you'll go to hell" and i refuse to belive that, think of people that are missinformed, but are still nice/wonderful people that have done no harm to anyone in their life, and they're going to hell because they wern't brought up christian?

i agree with that fully.

that one thing contributed a lot to pushing me away from most religions. Its complete bullsht that someone can tell me that a person, worth millions, who donates every cent he has to poor, starving children in africa is going to burn in eternal hellfire because he didnt beleive exactly as someone else does.

theres a lot of these dumb little rules you have to follow that just make the whole system a joke. I agree with you that many organized religions are "corrupt" per se in this sense.