quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley "Er" is "you're talking rubbish!" Saying all America's military equipment comes from Israel is "talking rubbish"

rubbish my ass...
first of all, i didnt say all of the arms...
second, what you see and hear is what they want you to think, it isnt the real truth...
america is receiving a lot of arms, tanks, bombs and whatever from israel, either you know it or not or the country admits it or not...

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Originally posted by deibero rubbish my ass... first of all, i didnt say all of the arms... second, what you see and hear is what they want you to think, it isnt the real truth... america is receiving a lot of arms, tanks, bombs and whatever from israel, either you know it or not or the country admits it or not...

So if Israel and America are not admitting it, how exactly do you know?

You haven't got a clue have you?!

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Originally posted by George Smiley So if Israel and America are not admitting it, how exactly do you know? You haven't got a clue have you?!

dude he didn't say America isn't admitting it he said whether or not they do. For example, like the topic of Israel's nuclear arsenal.

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Originally posted by Lepanto dude he didn't say America isn't admitting it he said whether or not they do. For example, like the topic of Israel's nuclear arsenal.

Who said America has ever helped Israel produce nuclear weapons?

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Originally posted by Lepanto dude he didn't say America isn't admitting it he said whether or not they do. For example, like the topic of Israel's nuclear arsenal.

I know what he said. And I know Israel and America buy weapons off each other but that can be said for most countries in the western world and does not explain the special relationship. Nobody would find it hard to explain why the US and Britain have a special relationship but I have yet to be convinced by anyone's arguments about why Israel has a special relationship with Israel. It has nothing to do with what weapons Israel makes that America wants (as that would be the same for many countries) It might have a lot to do with Israel being under threat, and certainly that threat + ideology is used to justify the relationship. But why cant politicians in America criticise Israel without having their careers ruined? Why do politicians argue over who would support Israel the most? Why is support for Israel such a crucial election issue? The answers to those questions explains the special relationship and the answer to none of those questions is because of the benefits Israel gives to America that people on here have listed...

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Who said America has ever helped Israel produce nuclear weapons?

Do you know for certain that they didn't? One of America's strongest and top allies not having nuclear weapons? Who knows.


As to the other post though I feel what you are saying, I feel that this thread has pointed out enough reasons for the alliance, the strongest around is the fact that Israel is the only democratic state in a region of totall Western hostillity. Let's go back to the time when the USSR was supporting Israel, let's say it remained that way to this day, do you think we would have the sort of knowledge and intelligence about the middle east as we do thanks to the Mossad (s/p) ?

It's a complex alliance but you could say that about alot of countries. For example the alliance between the UK and the US amazes me after all the conflicts they went through at the early origin of the USA.

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Originally posted by Lepanto Do you know for certain that they didn't? One of America's strongest and top allies not having nuclear weapons? Who knows.

Who knows?! WHO KNOWS?!?! Is that all you can come up with!! FYI it was France that built Israel's nuclear reactor. Israel got their own uranium from the Negev (France and Britain supplied heavy water) and the Israelis made their own weapons. Hell, the Americans didn't even know about it and when they did, or suspected they were against it

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As to the other post though I feel what you are saying, I feel that this thread has pointed out enough reasons for the alliance, the strongest around is the fact that Israel is the only democratic state in a region of totall Western hostillity. Let's go back to the time when the USSR was supporting Israel, let's say it remained that way to this day, do you think we would have the sort of knowledge and intelligence about the middle east as we do thanks to the Mossad (s/p) ? It's a complex alliance but you could say that about alot of countries. For example the alliance between the UK and the US amazes me after all the conflicts they went through at the early origin of the USA.

Are you honestly telling me that American elections can be won or lost cos the people of America care so much about buying Israeli arms or intelligence?! Possibly the Americans sympathise with a democracy under attack from terrorists? But why then, did the American public fucking pay for the IRA to attack a democracy? Sorry but that just doesn't wash. There is no existiential threat to Israel. It does not exist and has not existed since the Yom Kippur war (1973 incase you didn't know) Funnily enough, it was AFTER this period that the relationship with Israel really took off...

I could perfectly understand why the relationship is what it is if we were still in the Cold War. Israel served a strategic purpose but that is now extinct. During the Cold War it was the government dictating the need for the relationship, today, it is the American public. You talk of pressuring Israel to strive for peace, you talk of cutting aid to Israel or you criticise Israel - you lose the election...why?

Oh Almighty and Omnipotent George, you know more than all of us put together. You know exectly what the US as ONE entity (because we all know people in the US are all united under one morality and common sense) does and does not do.

How is the alliance pointless now? Shit you could argue that for any alliance that any country in the world holds with another that at one point they were needed and now "they are pointless". Fuck that, let's do what you say, let's just fuck everyone who was our friend yesterday because there is "no point in it"

You would make the biggest imbecile in politics if you were ever one.

You "lose" the election (whichever you're tlaking about) because they are our allies in the Middle East, no one else is, therefore if you cut your ties in the most important and threatfull (do not even start with this) region of the world, you're getting thrown outa office quicker than you can say PAC money.

Furthermore, during the Cold War we had much better "strategical" allies such as Turkey which were right of the coast of the Ukraine, the breadbasket of the USSR, we were even attempting to place rockets there during the Cuba Missile Crisis.


EDIT: ffs

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/special.html

the only link i care about looking up at the moment. This has been by far the most silly thread i've seen here.

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Last edited by Lepanto on Aug-26-2005 at 16:57

quote:

Originally posted by Lepanto Oh Almighty and Omnipotent George, you know more than all of us put together.

At last he sees sense!

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How is the alliance pointless now? Shit you could argue that for any alliance that any country in the world holds with another that at one point they were needed and now "they are pointless". Fuck that, let's do what you say, let's just fuck everyone who was our friend yesterday because there is "no point in it"

And now he puts words into my mounth...

I said the strategic relevence of Israel during the Cold War is now extinct (clue: the USSR disolved around 15 years ago)

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You would make the biggest imbecile in politics if you were ever one.

Make ur mind up! You just said I knew everything earlier!

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You "lose" the election (whichever you're tlaking about) because they are our allies in the Middle East, no one else is, therefore if you cut your ties in the most important and threatfull (do not even start with this) region of the world, you're getting thrown outa office quicker than you can say PAC money.

That assumes that everything Israel does is correct - it isn't. But domestic pressures dictate that American policy towards Israel should give them carte blanche to act however they want. Only America fails to pressure or (properly) criticise Israel, why is that? Is it cos the rest of the world are wrong? It makes no difference whether or not they are an ally, if they do summat you deem wrong (which a great deal of Israeli actions are) you should say so, not give them the green light to carry on regardless. But American governments cannot do this...why?

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Furthermore, during the Cold War we had much better "strategical" allies such as Turkey which were right of the coast of the Ukraine, the breadbasket of the USSR, we were even attempting to place rockets there during the Cuba Missile Crisis.

You did place missiles there, before the Cuban Missile Crisis. But what does that matter? If anything, it backs up what I'm saying, as Turkey doesn't have the same baring on American politics as Israel does, despite being under attack from terrorists and despite, as you point out, providing a greater ally during the Cold War

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EDIT: ffs http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...el/special.html the only link i care about looking up at the moment. This has been by far the most silly thread i've seen here.

Maybe you should look at other sources other than what Mitchell Bard writes? Saying that, he has wrote some interesting stuff on how Jews in America can effect elections, and also how politicians support for Israel effetcs their careers (I think its him, its definately from the same site)

that link should explain more than enough. reason you don't understand it is well, sad? No, you're intelligent enough to gather resources and be informed but not enough to actually understand them apperantly. What is the point of explaining their alliance? Explain the UKs alliance with the US to me then, that's even wierder. The alliance between Israel and USA has just evolved from a simple alliance into a strong bond. That's pretty much all there to it. Who says everything Israel is doing is wrong? That's your own opinion however doesn't disclaim anything talked about in the link I've given. BTW, do not let the jewishpress thing in the site's name fool you since everything gathered from any other large media group would also be under "those darn Jews" jurisdiction seeing as how they pretty much run the Media in the US. And any foreign site could not possibly grasp the complexity and provide a sound explanation for the alliance.

once again

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...el/special.html

that explains it.

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quote:

Originally posted by Lepanto that link should explain more than enough. reason you don't understand it is well, sad? No, you're intelligent enough to gather resources and be informed but not enough to actually understand them apperantly. What is the point of explaining their alliance? Explain the UKs alliance with the US to me then, that's even wierder.

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Who says everything Israel is doing is wrong? That's your own opinion however doesn't disclaim anything talked about in the link I've given.

Yes. who did say everything Israel does is wrong?

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BTW, do not let the jewishpress thing in the site's name fool you since everything gathered from any other large media group would also be under "those darn Jews" jurisdiction seeing as how they pretty much run the Media in the US.

Seriously tho, is English your first language?!

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And any foreign site could not possibly grasp the complexity and provide a sound explanation for the alliance.

Eh?

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once again http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...el/special.html that explains it.

That certainly describes the alliance, doesn't do much in the way of explaining it tho. It does, however, say..."Americans' affinity for Israelis also stems from our shared Judeo-Christian heritage" which you seem to have completely ignored

Anyway, have a butchers at this...

http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp446.htm

And perhaps you'd like to comment on the power of the Christian Right and their views on Israel?

doesn't the fact that there's only me and you left indicate that no one really cares anymore? There has been enough clarification about why US and Israel have a tight alliance, it started off one way and grew into a tight one. Why did the US become the country it is, economically or socially? no one really knows it just evolves into it.

/close thread.

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