quote:

Originally posted by Streakfury So what's with the whole 'Holy War' thing? You're sitting there, telling me how the terrorist bombings of America and the UK of recent years have come about because of the decades of useless American foreign policies which (you claim) cause far more problems than they solve. Yet any videos recorded by the various terrorist cells that own up to such bombings claim that they did it "in the name of God" because "the West is attacking Muslims". Is that what they mean? Do they honestly believe that American troops get sent abroad simply to exterminate Muslims? It's ridiculous. Fine, whenever American troops end up in a firefight, more often than not, the people they're fighting with are Muslim, but that doesn't mean they are there simply to fight Muslims. So to use the excuse that "America is an enemy of Islam" to justify planning the London bombings, for example, is ludicrous. What's even more pathetic is trying to use that very reason to brainwash Muslims of the younger generations into becoming suicide bombers. If all of these recent bombings are the result of American foreign policies that have cocked things up for someone, why must the people who organize the bombings recruit people by using their religion as justification? It only serves to make the West in general see Islam, and anyone who follows it, as a potential terrorist. The public are going to end up hating Muslims unjustly.

*takes a deep breath*
This is something I really shouldn't need to tell you, something you are probably aware of already; "Religious leaders" abuse distorted interpretations as a tool to meat their ends. No religion/political ideology/economic doctrine (politicized ofcourse) is an exception to this unfortunate reality. The sheep who follow them are their tools.

quote:

Originally posted by Streakfury No, I have no idea how many lives have been ruined in the east due to America. But then again, I have no idea how many Western families have had their lives ruined due to losing someone in a terrorist bombing, or in a military conflict abroad.

Well, then educate yourself on these matters instead of speculating without research.

quote:

Originally posted by Streakfury I do agree. And yes, if America has stuffed up somewhere along the line, they should take responsibility. But what do you want them to do? If people have been killed, as tragic as it is, they've been killed. They cant be brought back to life. And I dont think that planning terrorist attacks on America is going to even things up.

Well, not pursuing policies that make matters worse would be a good start.

quote:

Originally posted by Streakfury Like I said, belonging to one of these so-called "free sociaties" does not give people the right to plan bombings in the hope of killing innocent people. So if people are abusing the freedom they have (which they are if they're planning to kill people) then it has to be stopped. If people didn't give a good reason to take such drastic measures, then nobody would even have suggested them. As it happens, hiding behind your right to freedom to help make plans to kill innocent people is reason enough for these measures.

No one's saying it does. Goddamit, how many times do I need to point this out?

quote:

Originally posted by Streakfury No, do you? As far as I can see, law enforcement agencies go out of their way to make sure they have reason enough to arrest and interrogate people. In fact, in the UK at least, the police cant arrest people without sufficient evidence of a crime. So I find it hard to believe that there are many people that the Americans arrest and mistreat, if it leaves them wide open to be sued. I know for sure if I was held without reason, there'd be some serious suing going on.

Again, don't operate on assumptions and instead on investigating the facts. I'm not going to do that for you. If you've read some of the other threads I've posted in, I've posted plently of material from human rights groups and even mainstream media outlets on this subject. I don't have the energy/time to do it right now again for the umpteenth time.

quote:

Originally posted by Streakfury I understand what you're saying. But what's to stop the West claiming that any injustice done to the Middle East is their own fault? I mean, if the eastern countries can bomb the West, and claim that it's all the West's fault, then what's to to stop the West saying exactly the same thing about the East? And who do you believe? It's an endless circle. At the end of the day, it all comes down to intentions. America (so they claim) have nothing but good intentions for everybody. Obviously there's more than a handful of people out there who'll disagree, but that's the image that America tries to promote, and that's what a lot of people agree with. Now what about the image that the eastern countries try to show. They claim that their actions are brought about because it's what their religion says they should do. They feel that what they're doing is the right thing to do, and many people agree with them. Again, there are more than a handful of people who disagree as well. So who is right and who is wrong? Both sides believe they are doing the right thing, and that they have been the victim of wrongdoing in some way. Personally, I can only make judgements about events that I've witnessed myself. I wasn't around 50 or 60 years ago when some of these events you mentioned were happening, and if anyone tells me about them, they're obviously going to be biased in some way. So all I can do is make judgements based on what I've seen myself. That's why I think it's a good idea to wiretap religious buildings. It's obvious that they are sometimes used as a recruitment station for people who wish to harm the people of my country, and I obviously dont agree with it. As for why they want to kill people, I have no idea, but as far as I'm concerned, there is no good enough reason to kill innocent people. So if monitoring the communications of known recruitment hotspots would reduce such activites, I'm all for it. Anyway, I hope you don't take offence to anything I've said. It wasn't intended.

No one is totally innocent and no one is entirely to blame for any situation eighter. The degree of guilt however varies. This isn't a pissing contest. And no, you haven't offended me. The only way extremest/fundamentalist try to justify killing in the name of religion is selectively taking certain portion of religious texts out of context while ignoring other parts. This again relates to the intial point I made about "religious leaders" abusing religion.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Last edited by shaolin_Z on Oct-05-2005 at 18:30