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Originally posted by Trancer-X Sure, that was one event - an event that imbued an entire generation with anti-American and anti-imperialist sentiments. The entire Middle East has at one point or another been a pawn to Colonial interests, whether they be British, Dutch or American - that much is already given.

I'm not doubting that one bit. My point is that Shaolin (and you maybe) seem to be seeing that as the ONLY reason the Middle East is in the state it is. That simply is not true. The regimes of the Middle Eastern states, and the political culture of the Middle East are as much to blame as anything else...

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Originally posted by George Smiley They did, now the neocons have taken over (again, ish!) they want democracy (our version obviously) so you get the Iraq war.

No, the Neocons were never in control, at least not like they are now. G. Bush Sr. used to keep them at arms length when they were in his administration - and for good reason. in political circles they used to be called the "crazies!"

Anyway, our 'namesake' democracy would really only be a (little known - for a good reason) form of government called Synarchy. Synarchy is the rule of government by secret society, or a group of so-called 'enlightened' initiates who rule from behind the scenes, aka a puppet government much like we have here today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synarchy

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Originally posted by George Smiley I'm not doubting that one bit. My point is that Shaolin (and you maybe) seem to be seeing that as the ONLY reason the Middle East is in the state it is. That simply is not true. The regimes of the Middle Eastern states, and the political culture of the Middle East are as much to blame as anything else...

And you don't think that maybe that is because their culture and their natural resources have been under seige for the last thousand or so years? I mean, I'm not saying they're right - but I am saying that I can kind of understand their motives and their apprehensiveness towards us.

BTW - just so we're straight on this, I never once said that my country was the only reason why they are in their current state. Far from it.

of course, if iran succeed in acquiring nuclear weapons, the US will be able to load a couple of nukes onto some planes, crash them into buildings, then declare nuclear war on iran

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Originally posted by Trancer-X Do you mean like when the Iranian parliament nationalized their oil industry so that the profits would be realized by Iran and not the multinational oil corporations? We overthrew that democratically elected government pretty quickly after they pulled that one on us! http://www.iranchamber.com/history/coup53/coup53p1.php

Didn't Iraq do the same thing?
Oh wait, Iraq stole them and called it nationalization...

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"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Didn't Iraq do the same thing? Oh wait, Iraq stole them and called it nationalization...

I think you're confusing the (once) sovereign nation of Iraq with the French and British Colonial powers...

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History of Oil in Iraq Lord Curzon, the British Foreign Secretary, denied that oil interests influenced policy in Iraq, but the archives show that the British government rushed troops to Mosul in 1918 to gain control of the northern oil fields. Britain and France clashed over Iraq's oil during the Versailles Conference and after, but Britain eventually took the lion’s share by turning its military victories into colonial rule. The powerful Iraq Petroleum Company, in which US and French firms held minority positions, acted always in the cartel interests of the Anglo-American companies. To the fury of the Iraqis and the French, it held down production to maximize profits elswhere. The company kept a monopoly of Iraq’s oil sector until nationalization in 1972. http://www.globalpolicy.org/securit...ilhistindex.htm

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"Learn, child, to catch a hint through whatever agency it may be given. 'Sermons may be preached through stones." - Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, Letters from the Masters of Wisdom, first series, p. 74, letter 31

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Originally posted by Lepanto How do you even figure out how to put on your shoes in the morning? You also forgot Russia you prick.

I hired your mom my maid. She does it everyday in morning while giving me blowjob. Dont worry about my shoes.

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Originally posted by Purple I hired your mom my maid. She does it everyday in morning while giving me blowjob. Dont worry about my shoes.

Oh, my. What language, and you've probably stayed up all night writing that. What a dingbat you are, niggard.

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My SpaceMySpaceMUSIC
Anti-Purple Alliance.

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Originally posted by Trancer-X I think you're confusing the (once) sovereign nation of Iraq with the French and British Colonial powers...

Close but you kind of mentioned it...

In 1961, the revolutionary government of General Qassem passed Public Law 80, which dispossessed the IPC* and nationalised 99.5% of its concession areas in Iraq, leaving it to operate only in those areas currently in production and to transfer control over all matters connected with oil, to an Iraq National Oil Company (INOC) to exploit the new territory.
The IPC wasn't devoid of current production but all previous government approved IPC proven reserves that had not been under prodution, was now dull and void.

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IPC - The Iraq Petroleum Company was set up in 1920 as the Turkish Petroleum Company following the defeat and break-up of the Ottoman Empire after World War I and with the shares held by three oil companies, Anglo-Iranian Oil Company, Royal Dutch/Shell and a French oil company, Compagnie Française des Pétroles and one individual, Calouste Gulbenkian, who held 5% of the shares. It was renamed the Iraq Petroleum Company in 1929.

>>Source<<

In 1971, the Iraqi government nationalised the remaining interests. This resulted in major increases in revenues for the Baath party government under Saddam Hussein to pursue massive infrastructure projects (and fund his regime).

There's a lot more info >>here<<

My use of the word, 'stole' could be considered harsh as Iraq did give some consessions.

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1972 Jun 1 Iraq nationalizes Iraq Petroleum Company's (IPC) concession owned by British Petroleum, Royal Dutch-Shell, Compagnie Francaise des Petroles, Mobil and Standard Oil of New Jersey (now Exxon). The concessions were valued at over one billion dollars. Jun 9 In a show of support for Iraq, OPEC moves to prevent companies whose interests were nationalized in Iraq from increasing production elsewhere; appoints mediators between Iraq and IPC.

But as we can see, it starts to get real messy with OPEC getting involved and geopolitical/cultural intricacies ensue.

I digress, however one could say that Iran's quest for nuclear arms is a clear case of sovranty much like Iraq's choice of booting everyone out of their country.
I'm not blaming Iraq for their choice but they did bite the hand that was feeding them and created a backlash that has been lasting decades. (We all know there's a much larger arguement in here).
Iran, with their current pursuit will upset an already ice-thin balance yet again in the region and could create an arms race between adjoining countries which we already know are unstable or hostile to global interactions unless it fits their needs.
I wish I could believe Iran when they say it's for their energy needs but they haven't actually injected any positive actions or support for their arguement; my feelings are sceptical at best.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Close but you kind of mentioned it... My use of the word, 'stole' could be considered harsh as Iraq did give some consessions.

Yeah, but your usage of the word could also be equated to how my country's founding fathers 'stole' the Thirteen Colonies from the Kingdom of Great Britain.

Honestly though, I admire Lord Baltimore. He was making Maryland settlers swear allegiance to him (over the King), way back in the 1600's. LMAO!

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The foundational charter of Maryland created a state, one ruled by the Palatine lord, Lord Baltimore. As ruler, he owned directly all of the land granted in the charter (almost 6,000,000 acres [24,000 km²]), possessing absolute authority over his domain and requiring settlers to swear allegiance to him, and not the King of England. The charter created an upper aristocracy of lords of the manor, which bought 6,000 acres (24 km²) from Baltimore and held legal and social privileges over the common settlers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Maryland

GO GEORGE GO!!!

You have 3 more years for your fight against terror!!!

Use the name of god to bring the world peace!!!

If there's no real reason to attack a country...your little buddies Dick and Donald will surely help you to invent some reasons.

You are on the right way. Instead of putting money into your health and education system buy more weapons from Lockhead to destroy your opponents cities so your buddies from Halliburton can rebuild them!


I really hope that the US people will think twice before they make their choice at the next election. It is so damn important that Hillary kicks Condis ass...

Wa hey!!!

Its nye an i'm pretty fucked so let me take this oppertunity to say FUCK YOU to all who disagree with me!

you know im mofo right!!