quote:

Originally posted by NYCTrancefan Cmon Dave you know better than that, this person had a point up until this statement "Those whose forebears didn't secede from the US to form their own country but rather came to America to become Americans should not be allowed to honor their culture in any way shape or form. That would be un-American." I am from Guyana in South America, but it is more Caribbean than South American and every September I see many people from the Caribbean honoring their heritage in this nation, the Irish on St. Patricks day, the Puerto Ricans, the Dominicans, The Norwegians, The Germans, so that statement was way too quick to try and make a point yet not acknowledge the reality of what really happens in this nation.

That blog post was biting sarcasm on the author's part. I liked it, so I reposted it.


And yeah Lepanto's on the ol' Klan ignore list. Maybe he and 2hardcore4u should get together and shoot the shit some time.

And also, to those assholes who say Hispanic people need to "go home," I am Hispanic and my family has been in Texas since it was Spain in the 1700s.

I am home thank you very much.

As for the Spanish language anthem, I think it's a rather poor idea from the standpoint of trying to get sympathy for the cause of opposition to the House bill.

At the same time I don't expect there to be any meaningful legislation out of the Congress before the mid-term elections.

I believe It would be a logistics and financial nightmare to try and deport 12 million people, so I say pass some kind of "earned citizenship" bill for those people, and then create some kind of comprehensive, responsible approach for others who want to come work here that focuses on border security and an earned citizenship guest worker program. That's my take on this issue.

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Last edited by DaveSZ on May-01-2006 at 12:16

quote:

Originally posted by NYCTrancefan Well I haven't posted in a very long time and decided to since this topic really gets under my skin as an immigrant myself. These individuals who are here illegally seeking a better life and their supporters have made some critical mistakes in their protests. The waving of the flags of Mexico, Honduras, Guatemala to name a few places really irked many Americans who were watching myself included. The message was clearly received when more American flags were seen in latter protests. The National Anthem scenario is indicative of the issue at hand. If one wants to be an American then they must take the steps to do so and that does not include changing of the National Anthem's language to suit the needs of another language as some of these Spanish artists and some British bloke decided to undertake for their agenda, whatever the noble intentions were. Which brings me to my main point "respect for the nation in which one lives" If I am in Holland, I would want to speak Dutch, France - French, Brazil - Portuguese. No one in the U.S. is going to be persecuted for speaking Spanish but it would trouble me if they are middle aged and do not make an attempt to learn English, do they truly care to integrate is the question thus raised. Whether we realize it or not people who live in a nation have a deep rooted interest in seeing their language preserved, and that applies to foreigners who immigrate to it. One need look no further than Quebec to see the significance of language and society. Many of these illegal immagrants are hard working and I empathize with their situation and wish them the best of luck in acheiving American citizenship, This does not preclude them or their supporters from understanding that this is a nation of immigrants who have always taken the steps to integrate and assimilate into the wider American society for the most part. whether they were Irish, Jewish, German, Italian. Waiving flags of other nations at protests for rights as an American, not speaking the language of the majority, having supporters in the Spanish community changing the National Anthem for convenience and yet claiming one wants to be an American seems highly at odds when taken into totality. I wish them good luck on May 1st

I wouldn't have a problem with learning English as a requirement for "earned citizenship."

I think that's very reasonable.

The point I was trying to make in posting that digby blog post was exactly the one you have made.

There are those who wave the Confederate flag and call it "heritage."

There are those who wave the Irish flag on St. Patrick's Day and call it "heritage."

The Mexicans, Central, and South Americans who wave their flags do so for the same reason. "Heritage."

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see, this is why im not a fan of nationalism by and large. inherent to the concept of nationality is that distinction between "us" and "them". i really do see it as a counter-productive mindset more often than not.

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quote:

Originally posted by OurManFlint It's simple economics, a thing called demand. There's high demand for jobs in the states. The majority of Americans would never do the Jobs out there that some Illegals do (picking oranges, etc.). The demand is high, and some Americans are lazy, therefore they fill the demand. True, they do get paid under the table and are more economically efficient for employers to hire, but that also subjects them to more exploitation and they can be abused more freely. It's not like they are getting a free ride in the US. They work inhumane hours a get paid very little, doing the jobs a lot of Americans wouldn't do, and a lot of people don't appreciate that. They don't just do jobs, they fill demand for jobs, and most of it goes unappreciated.

I'm not doubting any of that at all.
It's no different here in Canada where a lot of Eastern Canadians have flocked to the Athabaska Tar Sands projects in Alberta for work.
Difference is, here it's legal.
The States problem is they obviously need a revamped, streamlined immigration system that makes it easy for those looking for work and supplying the work, while keeping the books accurate for those that need it.
I'm not against open borders, but I am against opening the flood gates with no accountability...

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...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by DaveSZ I wouldn't have a problem with learning English as a requirement for "earned citizenship." I think that's very reasonable. The point I was trying to make in posting that digby blog post was exactly the one you have made. There are those who wave the Confederate flag and call it "heritage." There are those who wave the Irish flag on St. Patrick's Day and call it "heritage." The Mexicans, Central, and South Americans who wave their flags do so for the same reason. "Heritage."

I think where the divergence on the flag issue occurs is that these flags of other nations were being waved in protest at Congress and for rights as an American on the part of the protesters. No one I believe has an issue if Mexicans were waving their flag at a parade acknowleding their heritage and contribution to this nation as many other American citizens do who immigrated here. It is the protest aspect of those flags, yet wanting to claim rights as a U.S. Citizen that seems out of step.

The realistic outcome of this issue lies somewhere in between, no all these individuals can never be deported and full citizenship is a long way off, however tangible efforts must be made on the part of those who are here illegally or whatever term one wants to apply to demonstrate that they have an interest in assimilating into American society on their own accord on the path to being a citizen.

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quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r I'm not doubting any of that at all. It's no different here in Canada where a lot of Eastern Canadians have flocked to the Athabaska Tar Sands projects in Alberta for work. Difference is, here it's legal. The States problem is they obviously need a revamped, streamlined immigration system that makes it easy for those looking for work and supplying the work, while keeping the books accurate for those that need it. I'm not against open borders, but I am against opening the flood gates with no accountability...

What I think would be good for everybody would be to have a guest worker program that allows workers to come over and get paid the legal wages. They won't gain legal status, and they won't be exploited, and becuase they would be getting paid so well they could support themselvs quicker. Over time, everybody would benifit.

quote:

Originally posted by OurManFlint What I think would be good for everybody would be to have a guest worker program that allows workers to come over and get paid the legal wages. They won't gain legal status, and they won't be exploited, and becuase they would be getting paid so well they could support themselvs quicker. Over time, everybody would benifit.

You could say the aliens (to strong a word?) are putting the cart before the horse in their arguements; regardless of their arguement for

It's nice to have the bodies to fill the positions that are obviously needed, so why not have them all fill out a temporary federal work registry with the opportunity for full citizenship? It's a win/win with no worry about any recourse.
(I appolgize right now if this is what Bush signed the other day, but I haven't really read it yet).

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The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

The Bush Administration has the Spanish Language National Anthem up on the State Department website:

quote:

http://usinfo.state.gov/esp/home/to...em_spanish.html Esta página está en: Página principal > Temas Himno nacional - La Bandera de Estrellas Esta página está en: Página principal > Temas Himno nacional - La Bandera de Estrellas Amanece: ¿no veis, a la luz de la aurora, Lo que tanto aclamamos la noche al caer? Sus estrellas, sus barras flotaban ayer En el fiero combate en señal de victoria, Fulgor de cohetes, de bombas estruendo, Por la noche decían: "!Se va defendiendo!" Coro: !Oh, decid! ¿Despliega aún su hermosura estrellada, Sobre tierra de libres, la bandera sagrada? En la costa lejana que apenas blanquea, Donde yace nublada la hueste feroz Sobre aquel precipicio que elévase atroz ¡Oh, decidme! ¿Qué es eso que en la brisa ondea? Se oculta y flamea, en el alba luciendo, Reflejada en la mar, donde va resplandeciendo Coro: !Aún allí desplegó su hermosura estrellada, Sobre tierra de libres, la bandera sagrada! ¡Oh así sea siempre, en lealtad defendamos Nuestra tierra natal contra el torpe invasor! A Dios quien nos dio paz, libertad y honor, Nos mantuvo nación, con fervor bendigamos. Nuestra causa es el bien, y por eso triunfamos. Siempre fue nuestro lema "¡En Dios confiamos!" Coro: !Y desplegará su hermosura estrellada, Sobre tierra de libres, la bandera sagrada! (Versión en español de Francis Haffkine Snow. Copyright 1919)

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Fact:

US Gov Commissioned Spanish language Star Spangled BAnner in 1919:


http://thinkprogress.org/2006/05/02/spanish-anthem

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