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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN having children is one of women's most obvious disadvantages (given how western capitalism has evolved).

Do you mean in terms of being physically compromised for nine months + responsibilities attached?

i think it's a wonderful thing. but as with any sort of radical movement for change, if you take it to the extreme it's annoying. regarding women's rights, things have changed A LOT in the past 50, 30, even 20 years. but they have a long way to go...and who knows if men and women will ever be completely equal. men still make more money today than women do. and even with double standards...a man sleeps with 10 people - there's no problem...whereas a women can be called a "slut". and how many men take as long in the morning as women do? not many i'm sure. if a woman forgo's the whole prepping routine in the morning, she's often not considered as attractive as those that spend an hour putting make-up on, blowdrying their hair, and wearing revealing clothing. i think guys clothes are probably a lot more comfortable too. i hope things like this will slowly change, and that men will become less superficial and women will not give into being shallow to impress men. there's no reason why women should be put second to men...and no women should ever put herself behind him. and shovonistic (spelling?) men should be hit in the face with a baseball bat...

but as for the whole bra burning/not shaving thing...no need to take it too far.

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Originally posted by Aquarian What I mean is that for example, obviousely men will never give birth, but that is completely irrelevant to this discussion. So, equality in terms of psychology and not physiology (and that includes hormones).

Yeah I just saw that on wikipedia. The argument is pointless because all women have different views on feminism, hence the generalism.

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Originally posted by Theresa What do people think when they think of a feminist? Do you think it is a good thing; a bad thing?

To answer your question I don't place much attention to feminists.
I do think it's a good thing they're around for those situations in which injustice is clearly taking place.

There is the stereotype that they're all a bunch of man-haters. My thought on these type of women are that they're conditioned with time to think in this way because they've somehow been emotionally scarred in life by a man. Otherwise why would they have such strong anti-sentiment towards the male gender? I am, of course, talking about the man-hater type feminists, not all of them.

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Originally posted by Theresa Do you think it plays a role in our society today? Do you think popular feminism is broken?

By the looks of things I think feminism is a waning and dying movement. Also it does not play a big role in society as it once did back in the days because most of the older generation feminists have taken care of the big issues like helping change voting laws, equality in the workplace, etc. In addition, I haven't seen much from that group in the news lately or a very long time for that matter.

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Originally posted by Caela but they have a long way to go...and who knows if men and women will ever be completely equal. -men still make more money today than women do. -and even with double standards...a man sleeps with 10 people - there's no problem...whereas a women can be called a "slut". -and how many men take as long in the morning as women do? not many i'm sure.

lol, I forgot about those issues.

The following is based off of personal experience in the retail business...

I fully support womens rights. If they want equal wages, equal benefits, equal roles in the company, then all the more power to them! What I don't like are the women who enter the working world demanding that they be treated as an "equal" and then do nothing. I've seen too many females demand that they get the same opportunities as males do and then turn around and do far less than half of the work as their male co-workers. However I've also seen a few female employees bust far more ass than a lot of the male employees, to the point where I'd say they deserve to make more than the men.

In Short:
If you're going to demand equal rights, then be an equal hard-worker.

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Originally posted by idoru The following is based off of personal experience in the retail business... I fully support womens rights. If they want equal wages, equal benefits, equal roles in the company, then all the more power to them! What I don't like are the women who enter the working world demanding that they be treated as an "equal" and then do nothing. I've seen too many females demand that they get the same opportunities as males do and then turn around and do far less than half of the work as their male co-workers. However I've also seen a few female employees bust far more ass than a lot of the male employees, to the point where I'd say they deserve to make more than the men. In Short: If you're going to demand equal rights, then be an equal hard-worker.

Amen to that.

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Originally posted by nchs09 feminist movment is bad, as it tries to say that women are equal as man. when they clearly arent. now now.. im not saying women cant do jobs man can do.... well i kinda am because it is in nature that we are different. men clearly are stronger phisically and are good @ math problems i think... because that part of our brain is more developed, and women are better @ abstract thinking. i cant rly remember other differences but i learn this in college. there were a ton putting down the ideal of "women are = to man " because clearly they arent ps. sounds like im putting women down but women have as much positive qualities as men. those are the only examples i can think of.

wow nachos.

i don't agree with extreme feminist ethics (emphasis on "extreme"), but i don't have a problem with women demanding equal rights. however, something bugs me about how a small percentage of women stick their noses up in the air and think they're somehow superior to men because of "self-empowerment" or whatever. if you want to be treated equal, don't assume that you're better than the other gender. it's hypocritical.

i don't think we're ever going to have equal rights between male and female though. not in this lifetime.

It's my experience that people who try to make a philisophical issue out of their race, gender, or sexual orientation generally do so as a result of their insecurities. It's also my experience that they don't have much of an aptitude for philosophy...

As a movement, feminism was useful towards the end of removing certain inequities regarding women's rights and the treatment of women in general. Perhaps it still is. In that regard, I would view feminism in a positive light.

In more recent history, however, individuals and organizations which describe themselves as feminist seem to be more about telling people what to do and what not to do rather than empowering anyone. Consequently I have learned to be highly skeptical about the claims and methods of those identifying themselves as feminist. If feminism appeared to place a greater emphasis on the individual empowerment of women to find the place in society which fits them as a unique individual person, as opposed to the advancement of the social or material status of women as a group, then I would have a much more favorable reaction to it.

As it stands, I think feminists with a positive, empowering message for the individual need to do more to seperate themselves from those who do not recognize the great diversity and individuality among women and instead treat them as a homogenous collective for which there is one particular way of life that is always best. Too often, I think, bad ideas are tolerated simply because of the banner which they purport to carry.

I blame the catholic church for a lot of this. Its their stupid policies on women in the church that brought about (or vastly exasperated) the removal of a lot of womens rights.

I agree in theory with the idea of womens rights. If women want to work and get equal pay, then let them. But if a woman wants equal money and conditions as a man, then she damn well has to do the same amount of work. If the job demands something more physical then tough, women cant do it, or will do it for less. If a woman cant/doesnt want to do as much work as a man for the same wage then tough shit. Feminism to get equal money in this case is utterly wrong.

But if you want it equal, then be equal yourselves. It has to work both ways. You want it equal, then stop assuming men are gonna open the door for you all the time. Stop assuming the man will pay for the meal. You want equal rights, you give equal rights too and stop what I call 'selective feminism', whereby women demand equality when it suits them and screw us over the rest of the time.


And heres a thought. If the women that spend all their time complaining about feminism went out and tried to be nicer to men and more equal themselves, then the world would be a better place and it would automatically get more equal.

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Originally posted by adi26 ... For example, there was this awareness program sort of thing in my college last week and these 2 girls from a club put up about 200 t- shirts with stuff written on it on campus so that people could see them. The program was about raising awareness about rape and stuff. .... Like there was this one story written on a shirt which was like: You told me that I was your role model. You told me that I was the inspiration in your life and that I was like your elder sister. Then why did you do this to me and why did you make me lose my happiness forever...Now, I can never be a complete woman because of you..... This might not be very disturbing but imagine 200 of them with different story in each of them. It can spoil your day thinking about stuff like this.

Well if something like this doesn't raise awareness about the issue I don't know what does.
Sorry your bubble of comfort was broken that day and you woke up to the fact that yes things have and will be horrible for some.

What I find most pathetic is you don't even seem to have any compassion for these girls who suffered but you're sickened by the imagery of these 200 tee shirts.

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Originally posted by adi26 This is the kind of negativity I usually associate feminists with. They really take feminism to a whole new level. I mean for god sake, all educated people have a fair idea of how to treat a woman and for the ones who don't, the police is there...

I don't know actually numbers of rape from one social class to another, but saying just because this is in a school environnement where everyone is educated, the problem couldn't possibly exist is nothing short of stupidity and ignorance.
Rape is not a rare thing in schools unfortunately and a lot of the bad guys get away with it I'm sure.






Now in regards to feminism as a whole, having always been a progressist hoping and willing for change to happen I am all about them.
I lived with one for a while and it really affected me to see what she did on a daily basis helping other females and stuff ( and now she wasn't a dyke or anything like that ).

I believe society as a whole has a misperception of females and tries to put them out of the picture, and the excessive behavior of feminism is just the perfect excuse for some to justify pushing them outside.
These kinds of attitudes need to change but that cannot happen overnight.

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Originally posted by jdat Well if something like this doesn't raise awareness about the issue I don't know what does. Sorry your bubble of comfort was broken that day and you woke up to the fact that yes things have and will be horrible for some. What I find most pathetic is you don't even seem to have any compassion for these girls who suffered but you're sickened by the imagery of these 200 tee shirts. I don't know actually numbers of rape from one social class to another, but saying just because this is in a school environnement where everyone is educated, the problem couldn't possibly exist is nothing short of stupidity and ignorance. Rape is not a rare thing in schools unfortunately and a lot of the bad guys get away with it I'm sure.

I feel bad for the girls who have suffered, I feel really bad and that did make an impact on me, a big impact and I feel horrible for the girls who had to go through this. But don't you think just raising general awareness about it would have worked too? I did get educated about the whole situation which I appreciated though.

So well, I guess you're right, it did work on me so it was a good idea...and no matter how you present this issue, it would be pretty disturbing...

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Originally posted by adi26 So well, I guess you're right, it did work on me so it was a good idea...and no matter how you present this issue, it would be pretty disturbing...

I am willing to bet that being disturbing was the objective.

To make something bad like rape get in peoples head as not being tolerable you must shock people into realizing the damage it causes.

Now because of that you won't turn a blind eye ( which you might have inconsciously in the past ) next time you hear your neighbour beating his wife, or hearing a girl crying out for help.