Wow...will wonders never cease?

Even members of the Muslims are echoing what I've already been saying...(italics/bold have been added for emphasis)

From Macleans.ca

quote:

June 11, 2006 - 0:01 Prime minister holds closed-door meeting with Muslim community leaders SEAN PATRICK SULLIVAN TORONTO (CP) - Some "very frank exchanges" were shared by Prime Minister Stephen Harper and members of the Muslim community at a closed-door meeting Saturday. Participants say the prime minister took detailed notes, assuring the group he recognized the concerns of the Muslim community. The meeting comes just a week after 17 people in the Toronto area were accused of plotting terrorist attacks. The 12 men and five youths all have ties to the Muslim community. Tarek Fatah, spokesperson for the Canadian Muslim Congress, said Muslims from the conservative right to the secular left were in attendance. He described it as a "healthy mix" of academics, activists, authors, and imams. It was off-limits to the media. Farzana Hassan-Shahid, also of the Muslim congress, said the meeting was a positive step, but that more empathy needs to be developed between the Muslim community and government officials. "Government policies, especially, should reflect that," she said. Hassan-Shahid told The Canadian Press that those in attendance had different viewpoints about what may have led a group of young Muslims to consider violent attacks on their own country. "It's about time Muslims owned up to the fact it's a Muslim problem," she said, adding that she thinks the community must forcefully denounce extremism. "We need to be more proactive, rather than issue statements of condemnation," she said. Fatah said the issue of American-based Islamic organizations spreading fundamentalism and extremism in Toronto was also brought up. He said two - the Islamic Society of North America and the Islamic Circle of North America - were singled out. "This is America pushing its fundamentalist Islamist thinking into Canada, not vice versa," he said. It's unclear what may result from the meeting. Fatah said parliamentary secretary Jason Kenney attended and was assigned to follow up with the group. Muslim professors in the poltical sciences from the University of Western Ontario and University of Toronto also attended, as did a representative of the Canadian Council on American-Islamic Relations. Also there were Raheel Raza, author of Their Jihad is Not My Jihad, a condemnation of Islamic extremism, and a representative of Muslim Association of Chinese Canadians.

>>Source<<

Sound familiar?
I'm not gloating here, I just want you to understand that they should do what any responsible citizen in a civil society would do and report extremism to the appropriate authorities.

Good one for Harper!

and it's not even election time...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Tarek Fatah of the self-proclaimed "Canadian Muslim Congress" is not a very well-respected representative of the majority Sunni Muslim community.

quote:

Fatah said the issue of American-based Islamic organizations spreading fundamentalism and extremism in Toronto was also brought up. He said two - the Islamic Society of North America and the Islamic Circle of North America - were singled out. "This is America pushing its fundamentalist Islamist thinking into Canada, not vice versa," he said.

ISNA and ICNA are NOT fundamentalist Islamist groups and just because those organizations represent the traditional Sunni interpretation of Islam (which follow the authenticated sayings and practices of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and are followed by the majority of Sunni Muslims in the world) instead of Fatah's watered down version, he "singles them out".

I just saw a debate between Fatah and an imam (can't remember his name but I attend his sermons every Friday for the important Friday congregated prayer--Juma'a) on CBC and Fatah was totally changing Muslim fundamental rules about premarital relations. He can't just do that, and furthermore when he attends discussions with Harper acting as a representative of the Muslim community, that's very dangerous because he's ostracizing the majority, consisting of slightly more conservative (but not fundamentalist) Muslims.

Thanks fayraree for your input.
Knowing nothing about the Muslim community myself, your words are important, to me at least

I want to understand, but at the same time don't want to be trapped into this liberal bigotry trap either just because I have concerns and opinions, so thanks again.
Hopefully you'll post some more here.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Thanks fayraree for your input. Knowing nothing about the Muslim community myself, your words are important, to me at least I want to understand, but at the same time don't want to be trapped into this liberal bigotry trap either just because I have concerns and opinions, so thanks again. Hopefully you'll post some more here.

I would second that as well, I mean the only side of that we heard here for a while was HardCore Trancer's POV, ha ha

Seriously, between you and shaolin_Z's views, yous guys have opened my eyes in many area's of Islam and the people of that religion/culture.

Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer Canada wouldnt be in this situaion if they were only in Afghanistan for peacekeeping reasons and not for major combats. Antoher reason why we are/will be more vonorable than ever is because of this Harper government.He wants the U.S friendship so bad that he is willing to put the whole country at risk.Canada will no longer be known as a peaceful nation, not with this government at least. cant wait for the Liberals to take control.This fuckin cowboy is gonna ruin this country.

Stephen Harper is not a cowboy, he has so little power its unreal. If you truly understood Canadian politics you'd know that a Prime Minister has very little real power, especially one with a minority government.

___________________

Also, I do believe that it is unfair to resent the muslim community as a result of these people who seemingly have disconnected themselves from every form of organized society, including Islam. It has always been my belief that Osama Bin Laden is merely a figure head, Al Queada his church, and all he does is sit around and get snuck around by US/European officials so that the threat of terrorism is constantly on many peoples minds.

The fact is, the real "terrorist" is not George Bush and that argument is unfair, nor is it Osama Bin Laden, all he does is take credit for the work of others.

These men in Toronto were not direct members of Al Queada, they were "linked to" Al Queada, which means they were stupid enough to get caught up in a bunch of mumbo jumbo ideals that clouded their judgement and caused them to build up rage against a place that is by most peoples' standards, wonderful.

It really bothers me that this issue is finally before Canadians in our backyard, Canada is one of the few places on earth that English and French, Muslim and Jew... Black and White can live together in cities, work together, breath the same air... Without there being turmoil and impossible to resolve fighting and blind hatred.

That being said, it was inevitable that we find "terrorists" in our homeland, why wouldnt extreme idealists live in Canada? Afterall, they have all the time and resources in a place like Canada to plan something, they have such liberties as freedom of speech and free practice of religion, plenty of food, work for income... An overall high quality of life, why not take advantage of those things and kill YOUR countrymen? Many of these men have been in Canada for quite some time, after a while even Canadians must be considered brothers to them? Its unfourtunate that they do not think the same way.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Wow...will wonders never cease? Even members of the Muslims are echoing what I've already been saying...(italics/bold have been added for emphasis) Sound familiar? I'm not gloating here, I just want you to understand that they should do what any responsible citizen in a civil society would do and report extremism to the appropriate authorities. Good one for Harper! and it's not even election time...

Funny, I don't see how you should be doing any chest thumping.

No-one disagreed with the idea the the community needs to be proactive, that was never he issue in our little tete a tete. There was no disagreement here, so to be as arrogant as to highlight pasages that we all expressed a shared concern over as if they exonerate you, boggles the mind.


If anything it proves my point that they (Muslims) are already aware of the issue and have been working dilligently over the years to combat it. It's "tree falling in the forest syndrome" if you may. Certainly it's an ongoing process and more needs to be done in the community, but didn't I assure you this was the case, and you continued to prattle on that it wasn't?

Since you repeatedly fail to grasp what I've said before, it was not your questions and concerns that were the issue, but the CONCLUSIONS about Muslims you drew FROM them.

To be blunt, your labelling of the community in a negative way, simply based on your incomplete observation of them.

Afterall "I just want you to understand".

quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer you guys (LAZfdsfdx,kepedan etc) need to get a life and stop being scared or perhaps go to Iraq and die with the rest of you so called heros. Unfortunatly Canada is part of this whole war on terror scam and I wouldnt be surprised if we get attacked,since our new government makes it is politics to please G.W. Bush. Even tho that mofo doesnt gove two shits about Canada.

GO in France...
piece toi du Canada

quote:

Originally posted by LazFX I would second that as well, I mean the only side of that we heard here for a while was HardCore Trancer's POV, ha ha Seriously, between you and shaolin_Z's views, yous guys have opened my eyes in many area's of Islam and the people of that religion/culture. Thanks

Glad I could be of assistance.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Sorry, can't have conclusions when all I had were questions/opinions...which I had to answer myself...

Anyways, there never was conclusions on my half, just suggestions and opinions based on my own experiences (which I disclaimered). So to be 'boggled' with my "CONCLUSION" where there were none is also, quite mind-boggling.

All I suggested was that the Muslim community risked isolating themselves with silence and this arguement was shared by a few bloggers that I tripped even after I posted.

It's obvious the Muslim community knows what's going on (or at least one would hope so) and have for years but the question was, with this recent incident, what are they doing about it NOW; a question that is thankfully, now answered.

Again, I don't have to suddenly become a Muslim to have an understanding of them no less that I have to become a bird to understand birds.
Now let's not have an arguement that I'm equating Muslims and birds and I'm 'offending' them with such a statement.
I never labelled anybody so let's stop making up arguements where there are none just becauase you 'think' I did. That kind of thinking is no different that had I actually done so. Maybe I'm the one that should be offended based on incomplete observation?

Anyways, this is now getting into splitting hairs based on a question already answered.
I can only hope that our next 'debate' isn't based on any assumptions on my behalf because believe me, if I have something other than a disclaimered opinion, I'll put it in big, bold letters next time for those that think they can read between lines...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Again, I don't have to suddenly become a Muslim to have an understanding of them no less that I have to become a bird to understand birds. Now let's not have an arguement that I'm equating Muslims and birds and I'm 'offending' them with such a statement.

Lol. Dude, you're being overly catious here.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller