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Originally posted by HardTranceProd I AM freaked out by the 92%. Note that the respondents didn't have to say "Yes". If they held no strong opinions on the subject either way (as the majority of normal people outside America and the Middle East - this just isn't an issue in daily life), they could have responded "Not Sure". In the charts, if you remember, the Yes+No responses did not add up to 100%. In Sweden, 23% said Yes, 23% said No, and 54% said nothing. But the Americans said YES 92 times out of a hundred. They did not exercise the chance to ignore this contrived, politicized, abnormally blown-out-of-proportion concept that plays NO role in the daily life of most people around the world. Now that makes me very sad indeed. (Note that I haven't even begun to talk about the intellectual capacity of most Americans - I accept that most people everywhere are "intellectually average" and will not read scientific books by Darwin and Dawkins, but at least most people can be "mentally normal" enough (as opposed to "intelligent") to not consider this issue as anything important.)

Do you know anything about why so many Europeans came to the United States?
Religious oppression in the old continent was a very big part of it.


With such a precedent religious beliefs were firmly anchored in the American way of life and thinking from the start of the establishment of the colonies there.
The belief in God is something that is very much part of the culture even if most people are not dedicated followers.

Learn a little bit about your own history before passing off the rest of your country as a group of ignorant and mentally ill people.

Also the concept of mental normality not being conformed to concerning beliefs in evolution or what not in the United States is irrelevant in that particular country if the average person believes in another option.

Do you know even know what the word normal means?
It is the average way things are done meant or believed in a certain group.

Perhaps at a larger scale the US may be considered deviant from normality but I highly doubt it. Take the beliefs of nations like China India they would most certainly bring a counter balance the "age of enlightenment" of continents like Europe .... some of their beliefs are much more far fetched than Christianity ever will be.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN of course. and i wasnt meaning to imply that it was. however there are far more uncritical believers in god than any other belief system youd care to mention.

I'll give you that.

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absolutely. the problem with religion however is that its ideas are almost timeless in their rigidity. you have people adhering to a belief system based on archaic ideas and without any capacity to verify the credibility of the authors or the context of their writing. again, religion possesses a unique quality when compared to other belief systems.

My guess is you don't know a great deal about the worlds faiths. Both the Abrahamic and Vedic religous groups developed over thousands of years and a progression of ideas is clearly evident. These are not stagnet beliefs, they are living. They change and grow and adapt with the times. Christianity today is extremely different then that of a hundred years ago let alone two thousand, the same can be said for all religions. Additionally, there is a great deal of information available about the context in which the various scriptures of the various faiths were writen (especially christianity as the Romans were fantastic record keepers), in fact, most of the scriptures provide all sorts of context and background in and of themselves. As for challenging the credibility of the authors.... that is done constantly via philosophy, archeology, theologists, hell even the vatican is constantly researching records and testing biblical and parabiblical texts to determine their validity.

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its also interesting to note that youre obviously washing your hands of creationism here, because i dont see the (intellectual) difference between creationism and faith.

Creationism is routed in the belief that the story of Genesis is literal. Most Abrahamic faiths now recognize it as metaphoric.

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interesting point you make here. all religions, in that they all rely on faith, fall into the "unsupportable" category. no evidence. none. so you cant have it both ways. a belief in something that cannot be proven = faith.

Indeed, however, I do not pass my faith of as absolute knowledge nor do I belittle those that do not hold the same beliefs as you did.

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at least my argument is based upon experience with religious text or people or opinions or wars (whatever).

Your argument appears to be based on your experience with a handful of people and some limited understanding of one religion and some historical events hen-pecked to only include "evidence" that suits your prejudice.

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religious adherents havent experienced god,

Is that so? Presupposing god exists; What is it to experience god? How would one know whether or not they have experienced god? Do you know? How can you be certain one has not experienced god? How can you be certain you have not experienced god?

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i still reckon religion appeals to the weak of mind to a greater extent than those a little more capable.

I don't necessarally agree with you but you are entitled to your belief. I would like to point out, however, that many of the most capable persons in human history were religious individuals (many highly so). Of course this means nothing as it is anectdotal as is every argument you have advanced. Truth is we don't know whether there is a corolation between faith and intellegence thus your initial statement remains unproven and should you hold firm to it you are infact holding your very own religious believe (faith in something that remains unproven), therefore by your own logic, you are stupid.

Good day

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by jdat Do you know anything about why so many Europeans came to the United States? Religious oppression in the old continent was a very big part of it. With such a precedent religious beliefs were firmly anchored in the American way of life and thinking from the start of the establishment of the colonies there. The belief in God is something that is very much part of the culture even if most people are not dedicated followers. Learn a little bit about your own history before passing off the rest of your country as a group of ignorant and mentally ill people. Also the concept of mental normality not being conformed to concerning beliefs in evolution or what not in the United States is irrelevant in that particular country if the average person believes in another option. Do you know even know what the word normal means? It is the average way things are done meant or believed in a certain group. Perhaps at a larger scale the US may be considered deviant from normality but I highly doubt it. Take the beliefs of nations like China India they would most certainly bring a counter balance the "age of enlightenment" of continents like Europe .... some of their beliefs are much more far fetched than Christianity ever will be.

Well, firstly, you do not need to teach me American history or culture, I know it far better than you ever will. (By the way, it's quite funny to listen to somebody living in France attempting to teach me the American way of life ) Even if you're American, you're not currently living here, whereas I am.

Next, be clear with your definitions of America. Last I heard from all the immigrant groups and lobbies here, America is the country of "freedom and diversity" whose identity is shaped by the immigrants who came here. Well, this is certainly a noble cause, I support it wholeheartedly, I am an immigrant myself.

Now you're telling me "Hold on" -- this country is actually defined by the identity of a single particular immigrant group, which came here due to religious persecution. I'm talking about the Puritans.

Actually, the people who came here for religious freedom are in the minority. Most immigrants, especially in recent decades, but not exclusively, came to America "in search of a better life." "The land of milk and honey." Sound familiar? Except there's no mention of religion here - the reasons were far more prosaic, i.e. economic. Look at all the Mexicans, did they come here for religious reasons? How about Poles and Italians.

Your argument now is that America is not really a diverse country of immigrants, it's an Anglo-Saxon Puritan country. You won't find a lot of people who agree with that, however.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd (By the way, it's quite funny to listen to somebody living in France attempting to teach me the American way of life )

It's also quite funny to hear an American telling someone that they cannot understand the way of life in places other then where they live.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd Well, firstly, you do not need to teach me American history or culture, I know it far better than you ever will. (By the way, it's quite funny to listen to somebody living in France attempting to teach me the American way of life ) Even if you're American, you're not currently living here, whereas I am. Next, be clear with your definitions of America. Last I heard from all the immigrant groups and lobbies here, America is the country of "freedom and diversity" whose identity is shaped by the immigrants who came here. Well, this is certainly a noble cause, I support it wholeheartedly, I am an immigrant myself. Now you're telling me "Hold on" -- this country is actually defined by the identity of a single particular immigrant group, which came here due to religious persecution. I'm talking about the Puritans. Actually, the people who came here for religious freedom are in the minority. Most immigrants, especially in recent decades, but not exclusively, came to America "in search of a better life." "The land of milk and honey." Sound familiar? Except there's no mention of religion here - the reasons were far more prosaic, i.e. economic. Look at all the Mexicans, did they come here for religious reasons? How about Poles and Italians. Your argument now is that America is not really a diverse country of immigrants, it's an Anglo-Saxon Puritan country. You won't find a lot of people who agree with that, however.

You're correct in your analysis but given that those people arrived after puritan values where inherent to the culture, and given the fact that unless you have a massive wave of people coming at the same time, for example in one year a number equal to 20% of the population or more, people tend to blend with the existing culture not change it. So even if the population is not inherently puritan, the culture and values that are the cornerstone of the american culture are from puritan origins, so i side with jdat on this one.

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard It's also quite funny to hear an American telling someone that they cannot understand the way of life in places other then where they live.

When it comes to culture and way of life, surely people who are in the country right now have more authority on what's going on? I'm not trying to teach him what France is like. Even though I've been there, I'm sure he knows more about it than I do simply due to living there currently.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd Well, firstly, you do not need to teach me American history or culture, I know it far better than you ever will. (By the way, it's quite funny to listen to somebody living in France attempting to teach me the American way of life ) Even if you're American, you're not currently living here, whereas I am.

Please do tell me more as you seem to know so much about me

If you are so aware of the history why couldn't you take it into account as a means of explanation to the current situation.

Going for the "you don't currently live on US soil so plz shut your trap" low blow type statements do not bring anything of value in such discussions.
How many discussions here are about things taking place in foreign countries?
Next time you consider replying in one of these threads think twice as you may not be living there which automatically invalidates any knowledge or comments you may have on the situation
Shame on you.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd Now you're telling me "Hold on" -- this country is actually defined by the identity of a single particular immigrant group, which came here due to religious persecution. I'm talking about the Puritans.

I talked about colonies and such ... which meant the first ones in a sense.
I realize things have greatly shifted since then but the historical background and it's influence is still very strong today especially in the political sphere.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd Your argument now is that America is not really a diverse country of immigrants, it's an Anglo-Saxon Puritan country. You won't find a lot of people who agree with that, however.

I did not make such a statement but I was only going by the so called poll that freaked you out because of the religious beliefs that people have

I also constantly hear complaints from people like yourself ( I think ) saying that the religious class has way too much political clout in the United States hence you yourself are saying it is a bit of a Puritan country.
I am only going by what "you" tend to say.


If you don't agree with me about the reasons I gave as to why religious belief is omnipresent in the United States please offer me another alternative.

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Originally posted by venomX You're correct in your analysis but given that those people arrived after puritan values where inherent to the culture, and given the fact that unless you have a massive wave of people coming at the same time, for example in one year a number equal to 20% of the population or more, people tend to blend with the existing culture not change it. So even if the population is not inherently puritan, the culture and values that are the cornerstone of the american culture are from puritan origins, so i side with jdat on this one.

So now you're turning upside-down all these American ideals that Americans like to believe in. See, you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you wish to tout the diversity-statue-of-liberty land-of-immigrants card, you must renounce the belief that America is essentially an Anglo Puritan country.

By the way, did you know that the descendants of these Puritan settlers currently make up a neglibly small percent of the US population?

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd So now you're turning upside-down all these American ideals that Americans like to believe in. See, you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you wish to tout the diversity-statue-of-liberty land-of-immigrants card, you must renounce the belief that America is essentially an Anglo Puritan country. By the way, did you know that the descendants of these Puritan settlers currently make up a neglibly small percent of the US population?

It is not about thinking is it right or wrong for puritans to have "control" of the country this is about the 92% the why and the how.

And secondly I believe everyone is fully aware that they represent a small percentage of the current population but their historical influence greatly outnumbers them by far.

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Originally posted by jdat If you don't agree with me about the reasons I gave as to why religious belief is omnipresent in the United States please offer me another alternative.

My alternative;

The US is a rural, suburban country, with low population density; it does have some urban areas such as NYC and Chicago, but those are an anomaly rather than the defining fabric, unlike Canada and Europe, which are urban. As we know, rural people tend to be conservative.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd My alternative; The US is a rural, suburban country, with low population density; it does have some urban areas such as NYC and Chicago, but those are an anomaly rather than the defining fabric, unlike Canada and Europe, which are urban. As we know, rural people tend to be conservative.

That is very true, its why ppl in the chicago area are completly different from the ppl in Galena, IL. Some neighborhoods here though are very religious. That is probably cuz I live in the suburbs.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd My alternative; The US is a rural, suburban country, with low population density; it does have some urban areas such as NYC and Chicago, but those are an anomaly rather than the defining fabric, unlike Canada and Europe, which are urban. As we know, rural people tend to be conservative.

You are talking about the current situation without taking into account the historical background.


nice edit btw.