I don't understand. Why didn't he just push her down a flight of stairs when she wasn't looking? Sometimes the simplest of methods are the most effective - and rewarding.

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Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike I don't understand. Why didn't he just push her down a flight of stairs when she wasn't looking? Sometimes the simplest of methods are the most effective - and rewarding.

He tried getting her drunk and he tried feeding her copious amounts of aspirin as well as a few other d.i.y. remedies for miscarriages (all of which she did consent to) but to no avail. Trust me, he already tried the fundamentals

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Originally posted by Lira Well, there's nothing in the structure of a tomato that convinces me that it might have any reasoning one day. A foetus, on the other hand, usually becomes a person.

What something may become (with help from a woman's body, not on its own) in the future is precisely what we're seeking to avoid with an abortion here. But when we're dealing with the existence (or not) of rights and, in particular, the rights a foetus has now, not the rights it might usually develop to the point of having.

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Like mentioned earlier in this thread, there's no clear cut definition as to when an embryo becomes a "living being", so to speak, but these features I stressed convince me that there is something going on, and I'd be cautious about how I'd define such being.

Well, we'll just have to do the best we can then, won't we?

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Synapses are what form the overwhelming number of connections between nerves. Since the functions of the brain depend almost exclusively on the ability of nerve cells to communicate with each other, synapses are also key to understanding the brain. . . . The cells that will eventually be part of the cerebral cortex [the higher brain, the foundation of human consciousness] begin forming in the seven-week embryo. . . . They migrate to positions in what will eventually be the cortex, where they build up in layers. . . . Before synapses are formed, the fetal brain is just a collection of nerve cells. The fetus is incapable of awareness or volition. . . . [The] burst of synapse formation [between 25 and 32 weeks gestation] marks the period during which the brain is transformed from a collection of individual cells into a connected machine capable of carrying out human thought. . . . [B]efore the wiring up of the cortex, the fetus is simply incapable of feeling anything, including pain. . . . [S]ignals may be sent by the nerves, but there is simply nothing to receive them. They stop at the brain stem for the simple reason that there is nowhere else for them to go.

Morowitz, Harold and James Trefil, The Facts of Life: Science and the Abortion Controversy (Oxford U. Press, 1992)

Prior to 25 weeks there is no biological possibility that the foetus is aware of its environment, or capable of conscious thought or feeling of any kind.

Now, look at that chart again.

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But there's something that seems to be overlooked here: A women does not have a foetus in the same way she has a liver, or a heart. The fact that it is inside a woman's body does not grant the woman the status of saying that it's her body. Except for rape, there is a direct causality from the actions of both to-be-parents, so these rights you mention might need reviewing, as they seem to view pregnancy similar to the way you see a disease.

The foetus is certainly not a part of the woman's body, but it is also not entitled to free room and board in a woman's uterus for nine months and all the free nutrients, antibodies, hormones, and oxygen it wants. It would not be entitled to any of those things, even if it did have a right to life, since a right to life does not imply a right to be provided with whatever you require to live.

Of course, it's true that in most cases the creation of the foetus could have been avoided entirely rather than terminating it's development. But is that supposed to be somehow better for the foetus? Is to have never existed at all supposed to be preferable to having existed for a short time? If we accept that life is a good thing, then parents are doing the foetus a favor by letting it have a few weeks of it prior to abortion rather than abstaining and letting it have none. Of course, given that the foetus prior to the late term is incapable of thought or feeling, I tend to believe it won't have any preference on way or the other and, ergo, defers any rights it might or might not have to the woman who does have a preference.

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Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike I don't understand. Why didn't he just push her down a flight of stairs when she wasn't looking? Sometimes the simplest of methods are the most effective - and rewarding.

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Ben Folds Shes a brick and Im drowning Slowly Off the coast and Im headed Nowhere Shes a brick and Im drowning Slowly They call her name at 7:30 I pace around the parking lot Then I walk down to buy her Flowers And sell some gifts that I got Cant you see Its not me youre dying for Now shes feeling more alone Than she ever has before

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Originally posted by Lira But there's something that seems to be overlooked here: A women does not have a foetus in the same way she has a liver, or a heart. The fact that it is inside a woman's body does not grant the woman the status of saying that it's her body. Except for rape, there is a direct causality from the actions of both to-be-parents, so these rights you mention might need reviewing, as they seem to view pregnancy similar to the way you see a disease.

I think both views (the view of a foetus as a live sentient being with the power of rational thought and the view of a foetus as simply another organ) are wrong.

There is nothing to suggest that a foetus has any power of self-awareness until very close to birth. Neural formation does not equate to neural functionality. A heart beat merely sustains, it does not carry any inherent sentience or emotionality with it. To argue that a foetus, with no brain activity and no self-awareness, is subject to the same rights and laws as developed adults is absurd. In fact, even children under the law are not subject to the same set of laws as adults are. The argument that a foetus has a set of rights under the law that must be observed, to me, is silly. This has been the religious argument for some time now -- that even a fertilized egg has the fundamental right to develop into a human life. Now this is treading onto some unsure moral ground, but is human tissue enough to have unalienable rights? Because by that logic, surely a vegetable-state person, who under the realm of possibilities just might awake someday, has the right for us to err on the side of its coming back to life. What about a dead person? Surely they have the same neural structure as a 5th week foetus? Just because they're on the opposite side of life, does that mean there is some line between their rights and the rights of a foetus?

Modern medicine is pretty amazing. People have been known to be brought back to life minutes after the pronouncement of death. Shouldn't we hold out hope that perhaps it is always a possibility? But instead we burn and bury bodies as a way of disposing of unwanted biotissue.

The argument will surely be made that a foetus and a dead body are not the same, and I agree. The argument to be made here is that both are not sentient beings. They both either were or could be, but at that exact moment are not. Why should the rights we bestow on the tissue of something that actually was a fully functional person differ from the way rights we bestow on the tissue of something that may, one day, become a functional person?

My point here is this:
We eat eggs regularly, but surely no one has made the argument that an egg is a fully functional chick.

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Originally posted by Lira The possibility of having a poor life (both on emotional and financial grounds) exists for all of us. The difference here, and which is what I'm trying to stress is that seeing abortion as the only way out is a matter of acting in bad faith: you're already closing all the possible outcomes to the one you judge to be the most probable one.

I really don't think you understand the desperate situation of the poor. Yes, a teenage girl that lives in a 3-level in suburbia is not likely to experience this situation. But what about a 22-year old former crack addict on the streets of DC, who may or may not have a job, but already has to skip meals so that her daughter can eat?

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Originally posted by Lira Resorting to reductio ad absurdum, imagine what it would be like to have a 7 year old child and then deciding you can not really raise that kid the way you think is desirable and decide to abort it.

This is what all the fuss in the argument is really about. Many conservatives in the states are eager to point to the slippery slope argument in many contexts. Gay marriage, abortion, affirmative action, etc. And while once in awhile those arguments may have some merit, that is why it is important to delineate. A foetus in the first trimester is not a sentient human life. A foetus in the third trimester very well may be. In my mind, abortion should be a valid legal option for women up until the moment a foetus is declared living, and an availability after that in exceptional circumstances (not in socio-economic ones, but in cases of fetal alcohol syndrome and the like).

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Originally posted by Lira And, as for the mother, it's not a matter of being overly optimistic, but it's reality: you can't predict one's future.

I understand your point here, but I think you are the one not being realistic. I consider myself an optimist in many cases, but this is not one of them. It must be significantly easier to move from abject poverty to the middle class in Brazil, because in the United States, rags to riches stories are very rare indeed. Without an education or any economic capital, there is no social mobility in the United States, a product, no doubt, of the ever-growing gap between rich and poor in this country.

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Originally posted by Arbiter Morowitz, Harold and James Trefil, The Facts of Life: Science and the Abortion Controversy (Oxford U. Press, 1992) Prior to 25 weeks there is no biological possibility that the foetus is aware of its environment, or capable of conscious thought or feeling of any kind.

This is the credible information that my post lacked. Thanks for posting it first

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Here's my take. I don't remember jack shit from the time before I was three years old. So if someone snufffed me out in that time period it wouldn't have mattered. Hell it wouldn't even matter now. I've had a good life. I've seen through the veil. I'm ready to go. Especially if it were painless.

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I've never been able to eat a whole baby.
Kill the women. Eat the children.
It's just one of those days where you want to bend over everyone you know and kiss their ass goodbye with a big sideways boot.

Latest Mix

i'm fine with abortions, keep religion out of the fucking gov't!

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Originally posted by Demoted She's a minor, and DC is coincidentally the only place in the States where a minor can have an abortion without parental intervention. He left at 11:30 this morning to go and get a Dirt Devil taken to her vagina. And I'm chuckling. Aheh heh... hooooooooo not that any of you cared or whatnot.

OMG that's terrible! if you lived here, theres a clinic almost within a 10 mile radius! by the responces looks like a lot of people "care"..

why are you laughing?

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DALLAS STAR ™ °¤§£¤y°

Treat people as if they are what they ought to be and you may help them to become what they are capable of being.

Last edited by dallastar on Dec-22-2006 at 02:13

This just in! The abortion went off without a hitch supposedly. It took roughly four hours, but the bastard wannabe child (mostly comprised of satan and bed sheets) has been destroyed. Just between all of us and the hundreds of thousands of people that browse these boards, the child would have been one mentally messed up brood.

They're on their way back right now.

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Originally posted by Demoted This just in! The abortion went off without a hitch supposedly. It took roughly four hours, but the bastard wannabe child (mostly comprised of satan and bed sheets) has been destroyed. Just between all of us and the hundreds of thousands of people that browse these boards, the child would have been one mentally messed up brood. They're on their way back right now.

yay.

I had no idea it took 4 hours though.

Some people believe that if you abort a fetus before the third trimester you're doing no harm. Think what you want, but it's still a life. The difference in your opinion now and your opinion later in life when you're in love and trying to start a family will possibly change. Abortion to you now means nothing. A miscarriage when you're trying to start a family means a loss of life.



At 6 weeks, the embryo is less than 1/2 inch long, and leg buds are forming. The spinal cord is visible. All 20 tiny baby teeth are present in the gums. The ears, respiratory system, and sex organs are developing. Brain waves can be detected. The heart beats at 140-150 a minute.

At 7 weeks, the child is 3/4 inch long, and can move her hands. The eyes have retina and lenses, and the muscle system is forming. The child has her own blood type, different from the mother's. Nerve cells in her brain are touching each other by means of projections. Some are connected in primitive nerve paths. 100,000 nerve cells are created every minute.

At 8 weeks, fingers are well-defined, toes are visible, and the stomach produces digestive juices. The child, now called a fetus at this stage, can swim gracefully in the amniotic sac. If her cheek is stroked, she will arch her back and throw back her arms. If her nose is tickled, she will move her head away from the stimulus. All body systems are present and all organs are in place. The outer ear begins to take shape, but will not completely form until the fifth month.

At 9 weeks, she can feel pain, and suck her thumb. If an object is placed in her hand, she can grasp it, and if her palm is stroked, she will make a fist. She can move her tongue. Every organ in her body is functioning.

At 10 weeks, the fetal heart is almost fully developed. She is 2 inches long.

At 11 weeks, the baby can make facial expressions, and even smile. She can breathe, and has fingernails. Facial features that run in the family can be recognizable. Blood cells are forming in the liver and spleen. The bone marrow produces blood cells, which also are forming the lymph glands and the thymus. Notice the developing skeleton.

At 12 weeks, the fetus is 3 inches long, and has vocal cords. Its brain is almost fully formed, and it can cry (silently, or course!). Eyelids have developed.

At 13 weeks, the fetus can squint, swallow, and make a fist.

All of her body systems are working. At 14 weeks, the mother may be able to feel her child's movements. Tiny whiskers begin to form all over the baby's body, indicating the first signs of hair. At 15 weeks, the child can savor the mother's meals, and has taste buds. Her sensory organs are formed. By the end of the first trimester, the baby can urinate, and depending on whether the child is a boy or a girl, he or she is starting to produce sperm or eggs.

At 16 weeks, the baby is 5 1/2 inches tall, and weighs 6 oz. He can grasp and kick, and has eyebrows and eyelashes. The mother may be able to feel "flutters". This is actually the child performing somersaults in her womb. The fetus is also capable of hearing very clearly.

At 17 weeks, nails can be seen. If the fetus is a female, she will already have 5 million ova inside her body--all she'll need for her entire lifetime.

Around 18 weeks, he will cover his ears if loud music is played, and shield his eyes if a doctor peers into the uterus with a light. The baby enjoys using the umbilical cord as his first toy through a series of grasps and tugs.

At 20 weeks, the mouth and lips are formed, and he can see. The child can hear and recognize his mother's voice, and could possibly survive if born at this point. He has fingerprints, and the sex organs are completely formed.

The baby also experiences REM (Rapid Eye Movement), which is a sign of dreaming. The fact that a fetus is able to dream proves that it is also capable of thinking and processing thoughts.

The unborn child is also capable of partially defending himself against infection by his own immune system.

At 24 weeks, the child has downy hair, and is covered with a waxy substance called vernix, which protects his delicate skin. Sweat glands are functioning.