Tiesto. Stop with the ranmbling denunciations of what you call "pro lifers" your definitions are ludicrous, and scenarios half baked. You keep going over the whole punishment thing like it is a new topic, when it has been covered already. You are like an old man chewing stale vomit with your remarks. This thread has gone from rabid attacks to a calm discussion on when WE think personhood and humanity begin. It isnt about how other people are wrong any more. If someone says something you disagree with make the point as something that maybe they didnt consider istead of a "You are wrong fuck you" attitude that you like to have. For a second when I started reading your post I thought you might actually answer a tough question, but was quickly disappointed when it turned into a religious issue. We have already agreed to not have religion in this debate because that is another issue. "Personhood" is not a religious concept. It is a legal one. Only persons have rights. Thats why blacks in America used to not have rights, they were not considered people. The definition of personhood changes all the time and the question is what is the best definition that is the most fair and who will it grant the "right to life" to. This also isnt a debate on whether or not the fetus is a different entity. Although your points did not make any proof against it because you were basing humanity and personhood on dependency and biological autonomy, which would then cancel out a lot of people in this world. Please try to stay on topic. If you have some honest, well-thought, opinion that you think will make people stop and say "i never looked at it that way before" then post it. But when you come in machine guns flaring, and bombs dropping, it makes people want to run to the foxholes and get OUR machine guns. It puts peoples backs up and makes them not want to discuss any more. It makes them want to fight you. So in recap. Stay with the discussion, be calm, think before you type, and try to bring only new and fresh ideas that might be genuinely thought provoking to the table.

and here is a thought provoking story.

You are in the outback of australia. You hear a gun shot. You run over to where you heard the noise and you see a hunter standing over a largish mammal. As you get closer you realize it is the body of a Tazmanian Wolf, something thought to have been extinct. On the small hill above you, you see another wolf pacing back and forth. It is the wolf's mate. You call the authorities and they capture it. Upon examination they find that it is 1 week pregnant and that it is a male fetus. The pregnancy phase in these wolves opens them up to higher chances of disease. If the wolf comes to term and has the male baby the species could be reintroduced and one of the most fascinating species on this earth could be seen again. If you kill those few cells in her that at most could be called "a few cells" the wolf wont be running the risk of disease and it will be healthier. Should you as a vet reccomend killing the cells so the she wolf will be healthy, or let them grow and fill their "potential" to be a wolf.

Orbax...u ever heard of a thing called PARAGRAPHS?????...

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax Tiesto. Stop with the ranmbling denunciations of what you call "pro lifers" your definitions are ludicrous, and scenarios half baked.

my definitions of pro-lifers are VERY accurate...sorry

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax You keep going over the whole punishment thing like it is a new topic, when it has been covered already. You are like an old man chewing stale vomit with your remarks. .

exscuse me u newbie...dont be rude and obnoxious it makes your arguement look that much more childish...grow up with your degrading repulsive comments and welcome yourself to adult-hood...and i keep going back to punishement because your the one who states that a woman should pay for her mistake by having a baby...and have yet to say why or back it up with anything circumstantial..

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax If someone says something you disagree with make the point as something that maybe they didnt consider istead of a "You are wrong fuck you" attitude that you like to have. .

show me where i did that.,,..matter of fact QUOTE me where i said that to anyone....ur the one who just insulted me if i am not mistaken.

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax We have already agreed to not have religion in this debate because that is another issue. "Personhood" is not a religious concept..

it sure as shit is...and abortion is very much so a religious issue...most pro-lifers use the Bible and God for their reasons as to why abortion should be illegal..u canot not debate abortion with out surfacing religion...especially when most anti-abortion activists do so in the name of religion.,...sorry

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax If you have some honest, well-thought, opinion that you think will make people stop and say "i never looked at it that way before" then post it...

well i am the only one as of this point to post FACTUAL evidence to reasons why abortion should be legal...you have not and still refuse to do so.....

to be honest i realy dont even care...cus abortion is legal and will more then likely always remain legal....so you and your prolife fanatics can keep up your cause for it will it lead you to nowhere ....enjoy.....

and learn to write in paragraphs...its a very simple concept

___________________
Bring back 1994 NYC clubbing nights, cus the sh*t today is filled with junk parties and DJs that play sh*t House.....Zabiela, Sander, or Howells and all the rest suck and couldnt throw a night like it was in the early 90s in NYC!!!...Screw Twilo - give me Limelight circa 1993!!!

/pats tiesto on the head/

that was a very cute attempt

and no, this isnt a religious debate. To use religion as an argument you have to have both sides believing in God. If I say "in the Bible it says thou shalt not kill" and you say "I dont believe in God, so what significance does the Bible have other than being one of millions of books in the world" that puts us at an impasse. So only use legal terms and original thoughts. and again on the punishment, it was brought up several times and responded to several times. Read the last 4 pages if you need to help remembering. Im not going to recap 4 pages for you every time you forget. The old man comment was an apt analogy, it means that even though you are harmless and bring nothing new, you are still offensive. And I would hardly call myself a fanatic on this issue. I have an opinion and I believe in it through fact and thought, if that makes me more "fanatic" than the common person who gets opinions out of the random opinion generator and doesnt care why or how they came to believe such a thing, I guess that would be true. And you still havent answered the question.

well anyways, this thread has mainly died down to bugbite and myself, so Im gonna stop reading/replyin to this. It was an interesting discussion everyone

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax and no, this isnt a religious debate. To use religion as an argument you have to have both sides believing in God.

well dont tell me that...its the majority of your fellow anit-abortionist who use God's name to condem it....

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax on the punishment, it was brought up several times and responded to several times. Read the last 4 pages if you need to help remembering. Im not going to recap 4 pages for you every time you forget.

and so has the abortion issue...waaaayyy before u came....notice how i am the only one is responding to this thread really...everyone else has been there done that...i am jus bored

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax I have an opinion and I believe in it through fact and thought, .

yes thought...however what facts have u shown?

___________________
Bring back 1994 NYC clubbing nights, cus the sh*t today is filled with junk parties and DJs that play sh*t House.....Zabiela, Sander, or Howells and all the rest suck and couldnt throw a night like it was in the early 90s in NYC!!!...Screw Twilo - give me Limelight circa 1993!!!

I would koin in the debate...but I will admit that I don't have any hard facts to cover... except that "I think it's wrong"... I already went over this though...how part of me thinks it's okay, and part doesn't. I would like to see this debate continue!.
Let me get this straight...Tiesto believes in abortion...and Orbax doesn't?

~S~

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Heal the Past :: Live the Present :: Dream the Future

I believe in abortion as long as there is no other way of facing a big problem

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Pure 30cm

Don't you think that's what life is about though? Facing big problems...and learning from your mistaks?

-S

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Heal the Past :: Live the Present :: Dream the Future

I think people should have the right to choose but personaly if i got a girl pregnant i would want to keep the child

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We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a saltshaker half-full of cocaine, and a whole galaxy of uppers, downers, laughers, screamers... Also, a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether, and two dozen amyls. Not that we needed all that for the trip, but once you get into a serious drug collection, the tendency is to push it as far as you can. The only thing that really worried me was the ether. There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge, and I knew we'd get into that rotten stuff pretty soon.

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