quote:

Originally posted by ChemEnhanced I don't get it....please explain. a DJ is a person who plays recorded music.....he has nothing to do with the creation of the music. A DJ does not perform music....there could be an argument that a DJ conducts music but I would say that is a stretch even. The DJ does not play a musical instrument.

A piano player is someone who plays recorded music. He has nothing to do with the creation of that music.

A DJ does conduct music as much as a conductor does (why not?).

Why do you not consider a mixer a musical instrument? Because it manipulates sounds digitally instead of analog?

quote:

Originally posted by ChemEnhanced Music...is basically the art of arranging sounds that will flow together and are pleasing to hear. A DJ does not arrange the sounds....he may mix two sounds together but he does not create the sounds.

Ok, first, you go from saying music is the art of arranging sounds to saying the DJ doesn't create the sounds. Maybe you thought I wouldn't notice that you suddenly started using a different verb, but I did. And a DJ does arrange the sounds. A song has a sound, and he arranges that sound in the set as he sees fit.

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Yes.
The answer Marg gave 'some are, some aren't' is subjective to taste.
All dj's are musicians in their own way - no matter what their skill level.

Check 'types of musicians' - Dj is listed below 'tubist' lol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musician

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Last edited by DigDeep on Apr-16-2007 at 20:35

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Button http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musician

Because Wikipedia is such a definitive source... Even on WP, it says turntablist, and you know that only describes a tiny minority of the people who call themselves DJs.

A lot of people here are using an equivocation argument to try to make their points. Allow me to summarize: A DJ "plays" someone else's "music", and a concert pianist also just "plays" someone else's "music", so they're the same thing.

The problem with this argument is that the first definitions of "play" and "music" aren't the same as the second ones. The same words are being used, but they mean different things in each case. In the first fragment, "play" actually means creating the sounds on their instrument, using a score of "music" that was transcribed by somebody else. In the second fragment, "play" actually means to "replay" music that an instrumental musician or producer has already recorded and mastered. The "music" in the second case is static - it's already been made.

The pianist is playing the piano, but he is making the sound. The DJ is not playing music in the same sense; the turntables and media are actually doing that, and the DJ is just altering or combining those sounds. True turntablism is different, perhaps, because those DJs are using the decks and records as an instrument to create original sounds, rather than simply making minor alterations to prerecorded material. But I assume that's not the kind of "DJing" we're talking about here.

So, no - the vagaries of the English language in describing certain art forms are not in themselves a legitimate argument for equating DJing to musicianship.

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quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Because Wikipedia is such a definitive source... Even on WP, it says turntablist, and you know that only describes a tiny minority of the people who call themselves DJs. A lot of people here are using an equivocation argument to try to make their points. Allow me to summarize: A DJ "plays" someone else's "music", and a concert pianist also just "plays" someone else's "music", so they're the same thing. The problem with this argument is that the first definitions of "play" and "music" aren't the same as the second ones. The same words are being used, but they mean different things in each case. In the first fragment, "play" actually means creating the sounds on their instrument, using a score of "music" that was transcribed by somebody else. In the second fragment, "play" actually means to "replay" music that an instrumental musician or producer has already recorded and mastered. The "music" in the second case is static - it's already been made. The pianist is playing the piano, but he is making the sound. The DJ is not playing music in the same sense; the turntables and media are actually doing that, and the DJ is just altering or combining those sounds. True turntablism is different, perhaps, because those DJs are using the decks and records as an instrument to create original sounds, rather than simply making minor alterations to prerecorded material. But I assume that's not the kind of "DJing" we're talking about here. So, no - the vagaries of the English language in describing certain art forms are not in themselves a legitimate argument for equating DJing to musicianship.

I disagree with you on how you say the dj is not making the sound and this is considered them not being a musician. They are not making it out right but they are still manipulating the sound no?

I think Margs and a few others hit the nail on the head. Manipulation of sound to create something new that hasn't been heard before (ie two tracks together in a consecutive string of tracks to form a set that's unique/different) constitutes being somewhat of a musician. Evil tree mentioned sound manipulation (or human organizatio of sound) as being someone who is a musician. Whether they're creating original sounds (via turntablism, scratching etc) or manipulation of the sound in a dj set (plain mixing, looping, 'regular' dj stuff) changes are happening that are being done by someone, this to me is a musician.


Man, just to make things easier...

Sound manipulation (in any way) = being musician. As to how good of a musician you are that remains to be seen. Yes Djs are musicians.

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Manipulating/altering a sound is completely different from making it. I don't know how the difference can be anything other than crystal clear.

Your definition, "Sound manipulation (in any way) = being musician" is wrong. "Manipulating" a prerecorded sound is not musicianship, it's editing.

It's like saying George Lucas is a great director. No he isn't, he's a shit director, he's just a good editor. DJs are editors. Some producers are also editors. Instrumentalists and composers and conductors are not editors, they are musicians.

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quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Manipulating/altering a sound is completely different from making it. I don't know how the difference can be anything other than crystal clear. Your definition, "Sound manipulation (in any way) = being musician" is wrong. "Manipulating" a prerecorded sound is not musicianship, it's editing. It's like saying George Lucas is a great director. No he isn't, he's a shit director, he's just a good editor. DJs are editors. Some producers are also editors. Instrumentalists and composers and conductors are not editors, they are musicians.

I see what you're saying in some sense, but the thing is they are creating a new sound, creating something different. Isn't editing changing something to make something completely new? Leaving in shitty parts of a movie completely changes the feel for the overall movie, it's the same with dj'ing. They are creating something new, by manipulation.

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quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard Don't get me wrong... I respect the talents of DJs (god knows I can't do it so I have to tip my hat) but there is a significant difference between manipulating a pre-recorded sound and actually creating that sound.

It is problematic to make this distinction though.
What about a keyboard?
It is programmed with sounds and striking a key causes that sound to be produced...
...works on exactly the same principles as a piano, except it is an electronic reproduction of a sound.

Striking a key, causing a sound to be reproduced, stringing a number of them together to form music...

...sounds like a DJ to me.

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quote:

Originally posted by shanny It is problematic to make this distinction though. What about a keyboard? It is programmed with sounds and striking a key causes that sound to be produced... ...works on exactly the same principles as a piano, except it is an electronic reproduction of a sound. Striking a key, causing a sound to be reproduced, stringing a number of them together to form music... ...sounds like a DJ to me.

Or at least what a Live PA performer does...

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quote:

Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

quote:

Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

quote:

Originally posted by EvilTree Or at least what a Live PA performer does...

You're right...
its more of a principle based argument, and if you're going to allow keyboarding, you're going to allow Live PA, and then I argue you would allow DJing as well.

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lalalla, can't we all just agree that DJs are overpaid musical charlatans?

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quote:

Originally posted by shanny It is problematic to make this distinction though. What about a keyboard? It is programmed with sounds and striking a key causes that sound to be produced... ...works on exactly the same principles as a piano, except it is an electronic reproduction of a sound. Striking a key, causing a sound to be reproduced, stringing a number of them together to form music... ...sounds like a DJ to me.

not so much. someone playing a keyboard or any instrument for that matter has to adhere to theoretical musical structure to produce anything that may resemble a melody or a song. while a keyboard does have certain programming that does not really resemble any sort of instrument at all and is just basically a collage of sound, for the most part keyboards are programmed to mimic instruments. while playing any of these instruments theory still needs to be a adhered to. comparing this to what a dj does is sort of a pointless argument because there is nothing that the dj can do through turntables that can be explained by theoretical music structure. like, you can't hit the decks and start going through your scales....

in the technical sense of the word, i don't think you can call a dj a musician. while dj's are very much musicians in the broad sense of the word....technically speaking, it just does not work. i also think it is pointless to debate about this because you can just as easily say that dj's are artists. in terms of respect and recognition no one is more important than the other....musician or artist.

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