quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo in Gaza?

Sigh ... Israel has held Palestinians hostage and under its arse for so long, that Palestinian government became so weak and dependent on Israeli funds and army to survive that once the Israelis pulled out, the radicals that brewed all the time from Israeli occupation decided to take control and the puppet weak regime was not going to hold it. Same in Iraq, it seems, same scenario. Can't you see that? Puppet regimes are weak, and opposition grows stronger the longer and more brutal the occupation is.

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Originally posted by LazFX and now, look what turning to blind faith in a myth has given the inocent palastinians....... instead of taking up the call for reform, they resorted to giving these radical "death to all but us" thugs a foot hold that any chance for peace, is now thrown out the window like many of the fatah party members were this past week. and you are right, the day to day Palastinian is not a terrorist.

Blind faith in a myth? Is that what you think they were voting for?

What is it with people on this forum and their blind, prejudiced and lazy assumptions everytime about cultures they simply do not understand? It's like talking to children!

They voted for Hamas not because they thought God would save them or God would build them a hospital. That is not what Political Islam is about. It is about the reforms you mentioned and policies for the social good. It would be useful for you to think about Political Islam in the same way you think about the American regime. They are deeply religious and base a hell of a lot of policy decisions on Christianity. Political Islam is the same - that applying the laws of Islam will help society better itself. It doesn't have to be as extreme as what the Taliban or al-Qaida want, and Hamas in no way shape or form is as extreme as those two (neither are the Islamists in Iraq apart from the al-Qaida one). Nobody would say George Bush is an extremist and follows the Christian version of al-Qaida's ideology (ok, so they would, but you know what I mean!) but it is religious none the less and he likes his wars as much as the next "extremist".

Don't fall into the trap that just because somebody is fighting a war and uses religion as a rallying cry or justification, that they all fall into the same category as al-Qaida. And certainly don't fall into the trap that everyone that lives in that region is an al-Qaida in waiting.

FYI, it is extremely well known that the Palestinians voted for Hamas because they were fed up with the corruption of Fatah. Not becuase they wanted to implement Sharia Law (which imo very very few of them would want)

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Originally posted by George Smiley Blind faith in a myth? Is that what you think they were voting for? What is it with people on this forum and their blind, prejudiced and lazy assumptions everytime about cultures they simply do not understand? It's like talking to children! They voted for Hamas not because they thought God would save them or God would build them a hospital. That is not what Political Islam is about. It is about the reforms you mentioned and policies for the social good. It would be useful for you to think about Political Islam in the same way you think about the American regime. They are deeply religious and base a hell of a lot of policy decisions on Christianity. Political Islam is the same - that applying the laws of Islam will help society better itself. It doesn't have to be as extreme as what the Taliban or al-Qaida want, and Hamas in no way shape or form is as extreme as those two (neither are the Islamists in Iraq apart from the al-Qaida one). Nobody would say George Bush is an extremist and follows the Christian version of al-Qaida's ideology (ok, so they would, but you know what I mean!) but it is religious none the less and he likes his wars as much as the next "extremist". Don't fall into the trap that just because somebody is fighting a war and uses religion as a rallying cry or justification, that they all fall into the same category as al-Qaida. And certainly don't fall into the trap that everyone that lives in that region is an al-Qaida in waiting. FYI, it is extremely well known that the Palestinians voted for Hamas because they were fed up with the corruption of Fatah. Not becuase they wanted to implement Sharia Law (which imo very very few of them would want)

Sorry, to sum up:

You cannot look at a group, see that they are militant Muslims and automatically put them in the same category as al-Qaida. it simply does not work like that and it is a very dangerous habit to have if you are involved in policy (which is pretty much the main problem we had in Iraq and why we are in a mess now)

You have to see each group seperately and deal with them uniquely...

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Sigh ... Israel has held Palestinians hostage and under its arse for so long, that Palestinian government became so weak and dependent on Israeli funds and army to survive that once the Israelis pulled out, the radicals that brewed all the time from Israeli occupation decided to take control and the puppet weak regime was not going to hold it.

so who's holding Palistinians in Gaza hostage now? when Israel cuts the water and the electricity and money to Gaza and all of it's ancilliary support, will you blame Hamas for everything they can't provide? you won't. you won't even blame Abbas, you'll blame Israel.

you don't have any answers...you hate Israel for essentially existing among those that have tried to destroy them...you say you don't like Hamas, but like all of the terrorist orginazations that have come before it that Israel has had to deal with in one way or another...to rational people, your indifference towards them is an endorsement of them.

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Same in Iraq, it seems, same scenario. Can't you see that? Puppet regimes are weak, and opposition grows stronger the longer and more brutal the occupation is.

shut up with Iraq dude.

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Originally posted by George Smiley FYI, it is extremely well known that the Palestinians voted for Hamas because they were fed up with the corruption of Fatah. Not becuase they wanted to implement Sharia Law (which imo very very few of them would want)

agree, but it was known how blood thirsty Hamas was.

then again, i don't think anyone believed that Palestinians could have possibly appreciated that in a way that would have prevented them from voting for them in such an overwhelming fashion.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Sorry, to sum up: You cannot look at a group, see that they are militant Muslims and automatically put them in the same category as al-Qaida. it simply does not work like that and it is a very dangerous habit to have if you are involved in policy (which is pretty much the main problem we had in Iraq and why we are in a mess now) You have to see each group seperately and deal with them uniquely...

you are right and after talking to my palestinian co worker, who fled the area due to her revoking islam, she told me the same..... I stand corrected... you cannot compare the two.. there is a big diff between a militant muslim (fatah/hamas) and a radical islamic (al queefa/taliban/iran's current admin)

I owe you a coke jorge

Palestinians support Hamas. Hamas won a democratic poll held under watchful eyes of UN and whole world. After its victory the corrupted opposition party refused to surrender power and admit its defeat. In any other county's case this would have been seen as a 'coup' by Fatah. Since Hamas won the elections it has full authority to force its authority. UN should have intervened and thwarted Fatah rebels out of govt buildings and restore power to democratically elected Hamas who Palestinians chose as their leaders and think can do something and bring change for Palestinians.

Israel has done a lot by not doing anything and by not letting anyone other do anything. Israel has done a lot by building the WALL all around and severely limiting mobility of UN peace keep tanks or troops which could have been stationed otherwise. Israel has made Palestine a living zoo for people from outside, who watch caged people fighting with each other and killing. And Israel watches them doing it Gladiator movie style. First build the wall, let them fight and we will sit on king's throne and watch the drama. And if anyone from outside tries to intervene we have 'THE WALL' or 'the arena' and the power bestowed upon us by USA to take care of it.

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Last edited by Purple on Jun-15-2007 at 12:04

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Originally posted by LazFX you are right and after talking to my palestinian co worker, who fled the area due to her revoking islam, she told me the same..... I stand corrected... you cannot compare the two.. there is a big diff between a militant muslim (fatah/hamas) and a radical islamic (al queefa/taliban/iran's current admin) I owe you a coke jorge

But you define Fatah as a "militant muslim" group along with Hamas...which suggests an extreme lack of knowledge about militant groups in Palestine, perhaps you should sit down a little bit longer with your Palestinian friend!

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Originally posted by LazFX you are right and after talking to my palestinian co worker, who fled the area due to her revoking islam, she told me the same..... I stand corrected... you cannot compare the two.. there is a big diff between a militant muslim (fatah/hamas) and a radical islamic (al queefa/taliban/iran's current admin) I owe you a coke jorge

Actually I'd be quite interested to know more about your co-worker's background and views on the current situation etc if you'd like to PM me?

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Originally posted by George Smiley But you define Fatah as a "militant muslim" group along with Hamas...which suggests an extreme lack of knowledge about militant groups in Palestine, perhaps you should sit down a little bit longer with your Palestinian friend!

she pointed me to http://www.faithfreedom.org it is ran by ex Muslims and contains many articles on the growing movement of apostates that have left slam due to the radical teachings....
very interesting web site to say the least... but it is blocked by many countries, especially Islamic Ran countries. I will not give her name or any more details out of respect for her since many in her family hate her with such a passion that even her own brother tried to kill her when they learned of her leaving the faith.
that web site is pretty scary....in that it offers a POV of Islam from former Muslims and they seem to know their stuff. The guy even has debates against active Mullahs and even has a reward for any Muslim that can prove that what they state on the site about Mohamed and his teachings are wrong.

Last edited by LazFX on Jun-15-2007 at 13:33

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Originally posted by George Smiley A question to those who are laughing and celebrating over this news and pointing out what animals every single Palestinian must be... What is the solution? Are you here to gloat or do you have a solution for this crises? What would your preferable outcome for this to be? And how do we get there?

Gloating?
Are you insane?

Questions to the people that normally defend the Palestinians were asked because, for whatever reason, they seem to have more 'insight'.
Why wouldn't we want their input?
Are those questions a little too hard for them or we finding out that they've been blowing smoke up our ass all this time? (Which is what we're begining to suspect due to their recent lack of input on the subject).

If I'm wrong (and I hope I am) then lets here from them...you know who you are...

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