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Lilith
Meowsies!
Registered: Nov 2000
Location: Maximum Security twilight home for cats
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Religious law is a crock George, we've seen it bring nothing but misery to entire countries when the Catholics held sway over Europe and no one wants to go back to that where the state is ruled from afar by people so distanced from society they have no concept of what a normal person endures.
Islamic law isn't any better than the Catholics in the 12th century, I'd like to think we've come a bit further than burning people for heresy and stoning people for adultery.
I mean even if 1/8th of those 2nd generation are a fudging of statistics down to 1/16th, it's still a large amount and made even more shocking by the fact that it is the 2nd gen. I fully expect 1st gen migrants to have problems integrating into a new society because it's a new language a lot of the time which is hard to learn as an adult and a whole new culture which is alien to all you've been brought up with.
But the 2nd gen are just like you, young and educated in the same schools and legally given the same rights as anyone else, being the UK there's an even larger lump of P-C enforcement on top just to really make sure.
| quote: | | Those youth with political ideas (like students and, hey, all of us on here) tend to rebel against the status quo and the elite that run things. |
Speak for yourself and don't coat me with that brush, I might be pragmatically boring in saying that, but it's just how it is.
Of course the 'Joe Average UK Citizen' favours Israel, take a walk down an Israeli street in your normal western attire and just note how much alike and boringly similar you are. There's a lot about Israel I don't particularly like or agree with, but they're not exactly going to call for my head on a stick or force me to wear the cultural dress code of the region!
Why should young muslims in the UK feel so vilified that they are willing to listen to some vengeful old fool of a cleric somewhere to give them that particular meaning to their lives?
What is so fundamentally wrong with the UK's own Islamic community that they can't provide successful role models which will help people find a place and sort out how they want to lead their life without killing people as a worthy resort to disagreement?
I've seen people die for all kinds of dumb things, beaten and kicked to death and stacked three deep on a roadside and left to rot for the nationalisation of farmland, shot in the face point blank in front of their children with a 9mm at the traffic lights for their car and mobile phone, literally torn apart by angry mobs or a tyre filled with petrol lit over their upper body for talking to a policeman.
But by far, the most profoundly idiotic thing when circumstances in a country dictate that there are plenty of civilised ways of resolving a disagreement, like the UK has.
That people insist on killing in the name of god and in the name of religious law. If it happens once to an individual you could write it off as being an anomaly, a freakish event perpetrated by a sick mind but we both know that it's more than that.
When you have groups committing premeditated homicide over it?
That is a serious problem which needs to be stamped out very quickly because you risk anarchy at all levels of society, there is only so much you can do to prevent retaliatory attacks by people, however misguided or whatever, who will take their own form of justice into their own hands.
Then we're going to have a really big problem which will only serve to alienate and vilify entire communities who most likely and undeservedly get treated terribly by their neighbours.
And currently, they aren't helping the cause by doing nothing as members, however marginal they may be wage a war in their own backyards over nothing more than a petty desire to kill. This is a bit more than just political agitation by miscreant students, it takes a lot to make these otherwise normal people decide that they're going to just off an airport full of non-political citizens going about their business.
| quote: | | Maybe it's not the Muslims that need to learn the British way of life, but the British that need to learn about British Muslims in the UK? |
I thought it was a fairly fundamental part of UK education from an early age that you just don't go around offing people because you don't like them or the people who are in government!
For all your sympathies (and to some degree my own), wake up to the fact that there will be no kindly word to leave the building if someone's going to drop the hammer there. Believer, sympathiser, non-believer and hater alike, are just targets and the people behind this kind of activity have their conscience eased by the fact that they truly do believe they're doing themselves a favour by taking you out of this world.
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 Jul-04-2007 21:50 
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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict
Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London
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| quote: | Originally posted by Lilith
Religious law is a crock George, we've seen it bring nothing but misery to entire countries when the Catholics held sway over Europe and no one wants to go back to that where the state is ruled from afar by people so distanced from society they have no concept of what a normal person endures.
Islamic law isn't any better than the Catholics in the 12th century, I'd like to think we've come a bit further than burning people for heresy and stoning people for adultery.
I mean even if 1/8th of those 2nd generation are a fudging of statistics down to 1/16th, it's still a large amount and made even more shocking by the fact that it is the 2nd gen. I fully expect 1st gen migrants to have problems integrating into a new society because it's a new language a lot of the time which is hard to learn as an adult and a whole new culture which is alien to all you've been brought up with.
But the 2nd gen are just like you, young and educated in the same schools and legally given the same rights as anyone else, being the UK there's an even larger lump of P-C enforcement on top just to really make sure.
Speak for yourself and don't coat me with that brush, I might be pragmatically boring in saying that, but it's just how it is.
Of course the 'Joe Average UK Citizen' favours Israel, take a walk down an Israeli street in your normal western attire and just note how much alike and boringly similar you are. There's a lot about Israel I don't particularly like or agree with, but they're not exactly going to call for my head on a stick or force me to wear the cultural dress code of the region!
Why should young muslims in the UK feel so vilified that they are willing to listen to some vengeful old fool of a cleric somewhere to give them that particular meaning to their lives?
What is so fundamentally wrong with the UK's own Islamic community that they can't provide successful role models which will help people find a place and sort out how they want to lead their life without killing people as a worthy resort to disagreement?
I've seen people die for all kinds of dumb things, beaten and kicked to death and stacked three deep on a roadside and left to rot for the nationalisation of farmland, shot in the face point blank in front of their children with a 9mm at the traffic lights for their car and mobile phone, literally torn apart by angry mobs or a tyre filled with petrol lit over their upper body for talking to a policeman.
But by far, the most profoundly idiotic thing when circumstances in a country dictate that there are plenty of civilised ways of resolving a disagreement, like the UK has.
That people insist on killing in the name of god and in the name of religious law. If it happens once to an individual you could write it off as being an anomaly, a freakish event perpetrated by a sick mind but we both know that it's more than that.
When you have groups committing premeditated homicide over it?
That is a serious problem which needs to be stamped out very quickly because you risk anarchy at all levels of society, there is only so much you can do to prevent retaliatory attacks by people, however misguided or whatever, who will take their own form of justice into their own hands.
Then we're going to have a really big problem which will only serve to alienate and vilify entire communities who most likely and undeservedly get treated terribly by their neighbours.
And currently, they aren't helping the cause by doing nothing as members, however marginal they may be wage a war in their own backyards over nothing more than a petty desire to kill. This is a bit more than just political agitation by miscreant students, it takes a lot to make these otherwise normal people decide that they're going to just off an airport full of non-political citizens going about their business.
I thought it was a fairly fundamental part of UK education from an early age that you just don't go around offing people because you don't like them or the people who are in government!
For all your sympathies (and to some degree my own), wake up to the fact that there will be no kindly word to leave the building if someone's going to drop the hammer there. Believer, sympathiser, non-believer and hater alike, are just targets and the people behind this kind of activity have their conscience eased by the fact that they truly do believe they're doing themselves a favour by taking you out of this world. |
The only part of your rant I disagree with is that "Joe Average UK Citizen favours Israel", which imo is not true (I was referring to the British government, not the public, and like I said above, I'm not convinced the UK government does favour Israel). But a rant is just what it was. How many times have I asked you and others on this thread to put forward solutions to this problem? Pretty much every post I've made.
Let me get one thing through your head ok? I am not defending Islamist terrorism. I can see perfectly well what a dangerous environment we are living in and something needs to be done about it. I have already given my opinions on what needs to be done (which includes what the Muslim leaders should do and what the government should do). What I am sick to the back teeth of is people like you and Firestarter who do nothing but make anti-Muslim rants against an entire set of people who have done nothing wrong but come from a different culture that you seem to hate. You rant and rave about ALL Muslims (and please no bullshit about how you only mean against the radicals) yet you all say NOTHING whatsoever about what solutions we should be looking at to counter this threat.
If you want to have a debate then fine, answer my questions.
However, if you just want to use the phenomenon of Islamist militancy in the UK to vent your anger at a set of people you have taken a dislike to then fine, but you'll look like nothing more than an ignorant bigot...
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Jul-04-2007 22:50 
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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict
Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London
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| quote: | Originally posted by LazFX
and you seem to just be an apologist. |
No I refuse to play along with everyone's anti-Muslim rants because there is quite simply no justification for it. When people let loose on an ENTIRE population without offering any reasons or solutions to what they see as they problem, then I don't see what else it can be other than an inherent dislike of that population. If Lilith, Firestarter and yourself begin to direct your rants towards the radical Islamists that deserve it, and away from the average UK Muslim guy then I won't need to make such statements. Answering my questions that I've asked in nearly every one of my posts would also go a long way to help convince me you three aren't just using these attempted attacks as justification to vent your anger at an entire population you seem to hate...
| quote: | | so tell us jorge??? what should the UK do? I mean, you seem to have an inside track.... nothing anyone else says satisfies you, tell us... WHAT SHOULD THE UK do about radical Islam? |
It really is too much to ask that you actually read my posts isn't it?
| quote: | [b]Originally posted by me, about 8 posts up
So what is the solution? Well we are obviously in a mess. We cannot alter the fact that we invaded Iraq, it's done. But I did ask a question a number of times on this forum: why did the UK not get suicide bombed following the Gulf War of 1990/91? The answer is simple. it is because it was seen by the world as being a just war. The Afghanistan War, following 9/11 was seen by the world in a similar light. So one solution in future conflicts against an Islamic country (ANY country) is to make damn sure it is a just conflict and that it is supported by the international community. Next obviously we need to devote more effort to a more even handed approach to the Israel/Palestine conflict as this is a major motivator to radical Islamists. Currently we are seen as taking the American view and favouring Israel (altho I would tend to disagree but then the UK has done nothing to suggest otherwise). We need to support the EU fully and put pressure on Israel as much as we have on the Palestinians to resolve the conflict. Then finally we need to do something to counter this Islamophobia that drives a wedge between the "normal" UK citizens and the British Muslims. |
Try and read what I write nnext time before you criticise me ok?
And while were at it, any chance of answering my question???
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Jul-04-2007 23:35
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Fir3start3r
Armin Acolyte
Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada
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| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Actually, unless you can quote where I support Islamic terrorism, then next post of yours better fucking well be an apology |
Nobody here has moral authority over the other so don't even go there.
How about answering the question first because seriously, other than shooting down what everyone else has to say, I don't see too many suggestions coming from you either.
| quote: | Originally posted by LazFX
so tell us jorge??? what should the UK do? I mean, you seem to have an inside track.... nothing anyone else says satisfies you, tell us... WHAT SHOULD THE UK do about radical Islam? |
___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."
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Jul-04-2007 23:46 
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