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Originally posted by Magnetonium As what I said. Lugovoi can be tried in Russia. If evidence is substantial, he can be convicted. Otherwise this is a political act, and Lugovoi should not be extradited. Pretty simple, also backed by the fact that British prosecutors have turned down an offer to prosecute Lugovoi in Russia, so its obvious that this is a political game for which Lugovoi has protection under the Russian Constitution.

There is nothing political about this. Lugovoi is suspected of murder, not espionage or anything like that. You keep spewing out the same rubbish as your government but you don't seem to understand the reasons why (or if you do you certainly haven't told anyone)

How is murdering someone a political crime?

And the reason the UK (rightly) does not want Lugovoi tried in Russia is the same reason Russia won't extradite him, because Putin will stop at nothing to protect his KGB buddies (as the EU and UN reports show - Russian law isn't worth the paper it's written on when the Russian government want a certain outcome of a trial)

As for article 61, well that completely contradicts article 63, which is pretty stupid for a start, or completely suspect and corrupt (ie the Constitution might as well say the Russian government can decide to extradite who it wants). However, as you point out, Russia is a member of the Council of Europe and has signed up to the European Convention on Extradition which states that a signatory is obliged to extradite a person who has committed a crime in another country if that crime is also recognised as such by the resident country (ie echoing what article 63 says)

So, is murder a crime in Russia or not?

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Originally posted by George Smiley There is nothing political about this. Lugovoi is suspected of murder, not espionage or anything like that. You keep spewing out the same rubbish as your government but you don't seem to understand the reasons why (or if you do you certainly haven't told anyone) How is murdering someone a political crime? And the reason the UK (rightly) does not want Lugovoi tried in Russia is the same reason Russia won't extradite him, because Putin will stop at nothing to protect his KGB buddies (as the EU and UN reports show - Russian law isn't worth the paper it's written on when the Russian government want a certain outcome of a trial) As for article 61, well that completely contradicts article 63, which is pretty stupid for a start, or completely suspect and corrupt (ie the Constitution might as well say the Russian government can decide to extradite who it wants). However, as you point out, Russia is a member of the Council of Europe and has signed up to the European Convention on Extradition which states that a signatory is obliged to extradite a person who has committed a crime in another country if that crime is also recognised as such by the resident country (ie echoing what article 63 says) So, is murder a crime in Russia or not?

Would the British government extradite its national to face prosecution abroad? Hmmmm, I dont think so. Most countries wouldn't. The evidence in this case is weak, its just merely speculation, even the friggin restaurant attendant says he didnt see it happen, but suspected it did. No strong evidence. Why dont they try to prosecute him in Russia? Why didnt they arrest Lugovoi in UK when he was there? Why wait until he goes to Russia and then demand his extradition? They could've waited until he came to UK for his another business trip (he's done it many times).

Its hopeless, Smiley, you cant get what you want especially when British government crosses all lines of decency and proper treatment and puts on a show like it did. Cant fight the Constitution.

Articles 61 and 63 dont contradict each other ... thats not how constitution work, dont be such an idiot. There are several articles for human rights that say pretty much similar stuff, but thats not contradiction because they're not arguing each other, they compliment - dont be an idiot. One is about extradition of citizens, and the other is about extradition if it has to do with foreign laws and such.

Russia is not obliged to extradite under European law, it is optional. Prove it otherwise. And in this case, its pretty dam obvious its political, and after what UK has done, I would never extradite Lugovoi even if I had the powers. UK doesnt deserve it with its foolish display of political idiocy.

Why dont they extradite Berezovsky? Come on, man, drop the double standards ... UK refuses to co-operate, and then demands Russia to be its slave? Gimme a break.

___________________
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Originally posted by Magnetonium Would the British government extradite its national to face prosecution abroad?

Yes

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Hmmmm, I dont think so. Most countries wouldn't.

Ya see, it's statements like this, that you have just made up, that make you look stupid. Most countries do have extradition procedures and most use them (after all it works both ways).

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The evidence in this case is weak, its just merely speculation, even the friggin restaurant attendant says he didnt see it happen, but suspected it did. No strong evidence.

Have you seen the evidence?

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Why dont they try to prosecute him in Russia?

Again, when you keep repeating your arguments that have already been answered or proven to be wrong, then it makes you look stupid. You know why the UK does not want him tried in Russia - because the Russian legal system, according to the EU and UN is suspect and corrupt.

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Why didnt they arrest Lugovoi in UK when he was there? Why wait until he goes to Russia and then demand his extradition? They could've waited until he came to UK for his another business trip (he's done it many times).

Perhaps they had not compiled enough evidence to arrest him, this is the UK after all and not Russia...

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Articles 61 and 63 dont contradict each other ... thats not how constitution work, dont be such an idiot. There are several articles for human rights that say pretty much similar stuff, but thats not contradiction because they're not arguing each other, they compliment - dont be an idiot. One is about extradition of citizens, and the other is about extradition if it has to do with foreign laws and such.

If it has to do with foreign laws! Of course it has to do with foreign laws it's EXTRADITION! How can extradition NOT be to do with foreign laws?!!?!?!?

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Russia is not obliged to extradite under European law, it is optional. Prove it otherwise. And in this case, its pretty dam obvious its political, and after what UK has done, I would never extradite Lugovoi even if I had the powers. UK doesnt deserve it with its foolish display of political idiocy.

Russia is a member of the Council of Europe so therefore YES, it is obliged to follow the extradition procedures agreed to

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Why dont they extradite Berezovsky? Come on, man, drop the double standards ... UK refuses to co-operate, and then demands Russia to be its slave? Gimme a break.

Repeat after me:

The UK cannot extradite anyone who has been granted political asylum, Berezovsky has been given political asylum, therefore the UK cannot extradite Berezovsky

The UK cannot extradite anyone who has been granted political asylum, Berezovsky has been given political asylum, therefore the UK cannot extradite Berezovsky

The UK cannot extradite anyone who has been granted political asylum, Berezovsky has been given political asylum, therefore the UK cannot extradite Berezovsky

The UK cannot extradite anyone who has been granted political asylum, Berezovsky has been given political asylum, therefore the UK cannot extradite Berezovsky

The UK cannot extradite anyone who has been granted political asylum, Berezovsky has been given political asylum, therefore the UK cannot extradite Berezovsky

As you seem to be having difficulty understanding the information in the other threads, I thought I'd summerise the main points here as not to complicate things:

1. Russian law (represented by the Constitution and the European Convention on Extradition) allows for extradition but not for political crimes - fact

2. Lugovoi is not wanted for a political crime - fact

3. Murder is not a political crime - fact

4. There are no Russian legal barriers for the extradition of Lugovoi - fact

5. The UK's Crown Prosecution Service has enough evidence to charge Lugovoi with murder - fact

6. The EU and UN say Russian law cannot be trusted (which is why the UK will not allow Lugovoi to be tried under Russian law because they are likely to let him go free) - fact

7. The UK has similar extradition laws to Russia, it can extradite people but not for political crimes or where the person may face torture or the death penalty - fact

8. Berezovsky has been granted political asylum which means the UK believe that he will be tried for political crimes in Russia - fact

9. It is against UK law, European law to extradite someone of Berezovsky's status (it would even be illegal under Russian law!) - fact

The above 9 points are all facts. They are not up for discussion. Please read through them and understand them before you comment further on this situation because it has become clear that you do not have enough knowledge of the subjects to engage in a debate about them - this is something that has become apparent in other threads as well - you seem to ignore facts at will when it comes to defending Russia, which is something you need to get out of the habit of doing otherwise anything you say in future will just be irrelevant...

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Originally posted by George Smiley Actually the EEC is the trade agreement and the EU is a political agreement that incorporated the EEC. So it ceased being just a trade agreement over 15 years ago! The reason we have the Union is because in a globalised world, what happens in another country can have a major effect on your country. Without the EU we would have no control over such problems (like the environment or cross-border crime). However, in the EU we can identify such problems and force other countries to comply, instead of asking them nicely only for them to tell us to go fuck ourselves (as Russia has done in the Litvinenko case). The Commission for example, is currently surveying the EU governments to pool ideas on how to tackle Islamic extremism which will then form an EU-wide strategy to deal with the problem.You also fall into the trap set by the Eurosceptics and their allies in the media when you refer to "Brussels bureaucrats". Are you referring to the elected Parliament, or the elected governments of the Council that vote on new EU laws? Or the Commissioners who are appointed by the elected governments of each EU member? I also find it slightly bemusing that anyone from Ireland (or seemingly Irish connections?) could have anything but positive views on the EU considering the economic miracle that has happened to the country over the last few years!

I'm half Irish Smiley. Obviously the economy in Eire has done fine or the Celtic Tiger as it's known, the UK has a good economy too.

Well it's very clear that I'm a Eurosceptic and will never change my views unless I see massive results. Why should a country lose it's identity? Why should we all sit there and agree laws with one another? We might aswell be the same country at then end of the day. I agree with import and commerce laws between the member countries etc, but everyone deserves the right to govern ones own country in their own way, make their produce in their own etc. One positive the EU is democratic when it comes to immigration, civil law etc I'm dead against it. We should embrace the fact that all European nations are so different. The European Union to me is one step closer to the United States of Europe?

My big problems are the commissioners and the elected governments of the council.

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This means the UK, as a member of the EU and arguably the no.1 target for Islamic extremists to have a say in how other countries deal with Islamist militants and as there are cells in other European countries that may target the UK this is of vital importance.

It might be of vital importance. I don't feel the rest of the EU gives a flying fuck about the UK in all honesty.

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The reason we have the Union is because in a globalised world, what happens in another country can have a major effect on your country. Without the EU we would have no control over such problems (like the environment or cross-border crime).

hahaha like the fact Interpol said we ignore the informaton they supply us, our border control is fucking joke. You work for government glorious Labour (The so called peoples party) why don't you all sort it out, instead of employing gormless c*nts like Straw, Blunkett, Clarke and Reid? I cannot wait to watch Smith make a massive blunder!

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Last edited by Dj O'Callaghan on Jul-17-2007 at 19:53

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Originally posted by Dj O'Callaghan Well it's very clear that I'm a Eurosceptic and will never change my views unless I see massive results.

Such as? And I already think we have seen massive results

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Why should a country lose it's identity?

Have the Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish or Yorkshiremen losy their identity because they are part of the British union? Nope!

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Why should we all sit there and agree laws with one another?

Erm to help solve our problems better?

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The European Union to me is one step closer to the United States of Europe?

That's not necessarily a bad thing tho...

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My big problems are the commissioners and the elected governments of the council.

What problems?

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It might be of vital importance. I don't feel the rest of the EU gives a flying fuck about the UK in all honesty.

What makes you say that?

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hahaha like the fact Interpol said we ignore the informaton they supply us, our border control is fucking joke.

There are dozens of issues that cannot be addressed in isolation. Why do you think the UK is a member of all the international organisations it is? The UN, NATO, WTO, etc. The EU lets us tackle these problems to a much greater extent than any of those organisations, yet the Eurosceptics remain strangely quiet over our membership in them...

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You work for government glorious Labour (The so called peoples party) why don't you all sort it out, instead of employing gormless c*nts like Straw, Blunkett, Clarke and Reid? I cannot wait to watch Smith make a massive blunder!

I'm sure they are trying to sort it all out! At least they are doing something about it instead of just complaining!

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Originally posted by Magnetonium I can talk shit about your country too, if you want to make it even. I just said the truth. And you can't handle it. And no, me and my friends dont drink your British shit, so dont worry, you're not making any friends either. Some Russians would drink anything, but that doesnt speak for the whole country, so you should shut your mouth or at least have the facts before saying stupid crap like this. Any Russian will tell you that that most of them drink Russian or American alcohol. British alcohol products - fuck, I never knew there was such a thing, they must be that bad. And I live here in Canada, oh well, I came at a very young age where I couldn't have a say in it. Plus I love Canada AND Russia. So I know you dont speak for all British people out there who are brainwashed by their sensationalist media, so I'll just pretend that you're just an idiot and give you a break.

Touched a nerve have I?

Please do say shit about my country at least we don't still use horse and carts for transport, perhaps you should wiki Henry Ford to get a clue on the matter?

Britian has a massive alcohol problem and I'm not the first person to state that fact. However we're not drinking our missus's perfume to get drunk. My opinion on this whole entire matter is Russia needs to sort out it's own problems before lecturing anyone else. That last rash statement you made perhaps you should refrain it as I can tell you have been to the UK.

How the fuck am I brainwashed by British media? All I see is two Russian ex pats (may I add) cursing my home country. At least we have sense of justice not corrupt like your home country.

You cannot help being moved when young. But you love Canada well I've never seen you display that? You just seem to me like another close minded who lacks the capability to intergrate.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Such as? And I already think we have seen massive results

I feel the European Union, should only be a trading agreement and nothing else. I don't agree with a single currency at all. Why should the UK's economy be dragged down by some Eastern European monopoly money? Take a look at the employment rates in Germany and France to take it into consideration.

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Have the Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish or Yorkshiremen losy their identity because they are part of the British union? Nope!

Yorkshire what the Texas of the UK? What the tiny little parliaments they have? I'm not all for devolution at the end of the day, even the 6 counties moving away from England (As there would be trouble). Yet we can speak about principalities we they hardly celebrate their Saint Day. Just like England for that matter with PC policies of the government how nationalist flags are linked to the far right etc.

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Erm to help solve our problems better?

No not at all. We can have extradition agreements etc thats fine. When some law effects certain propotions the UK then it's not fine. There should be laws made in certain matters i.e. commerce however when it comes to laws which govern a land the no.

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That's not necessarily a bad thing tho...

It's not a bad thing? It's a fucking awful thing. We might of well of become part of the Iron curtain if you think that way.

Way I see it is everyone deserves the right to choose who runs the government. I disagree 100% with any unification of any kind. Why the fuck should some councillors vote in Bristol effect a matter which concerns people who live in South Yorkshire?

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What problems?

A lot, including dickheads like José Manuel Barroso.

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What makes you say that?

For starters speak to any other European and ask their opinion of the UK. Usual reply is arrogant, skinheads with tattoo's who caused trouble. We're stereotyped either the pie and chips, pint and a shag brigade or the strawberry and cream snooty mob.

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There are dozens of issues that cannot be addressed in isolation. Why do you think the UK is a member of all the international organisations it is? The UN, NATO, WTO, etc. The EU lets us tackle these problems to a much greater extent than any of those organisations, yet the Eurosceptics remain strangely quiet over our membership in them...

I agree on the fact it's useful as a forum. We need to face the facts our home office is run by cretins.

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I'm sure they are trying to sort it all out! At least they are doing something about it instead of just complaining!

I'll give Smith a chance but I'm not expecting anything brilliant.

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Originally posted by Dj O'Callaghan You cannot help being moved when young. But you love Canada well I've never seen you display that? You just seem to me like another close minded who lacks the capability to intergrate.

+1

You guys never seen me show love for Canada? How about me passionately defending Canada's sovereignity and Canadian currency and political independent body in the SPP / NAU thread? Get a brain you two. I love Canada more than some Canadian-born people do who want to strip my country's soveregnity, our strong currency, and decision making abilities of international level and control over our own resources all for few big corporations who mant to make a bigger buck. Seriously, guys, personal attacks are just piss pathetic.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Seriously, guys, personal attacks are just piss pathetic.

Seriously, people who live in glass houses should not throw rocks...

the russian on here are notorious for personal attacks..... can't handle it when someone smells the shite you are shoveling here??

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Originally posted by LazFX Seriously, people who live in glass houses should not throw rocks... the russian on here are notorious for personal attacks..... can't handle it when someone smells the shite you are shoveling here??

No, I really dont give a shit, because its online, but its piss ppathetic and loser-like of you guys to go personal because it shows that you have nothing to follow up in the argument, so you go personal for your own satisfaction. Its a cheap way to switch an argument you're losing into an attack to draw your way out of the argument. Well, carry on ... you're not impressing anyone, I'm telling ya, it just shows your true low intelligence levels ...

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture