If I were working for a big american media company such as CNN and wanted to legitimate the actions of the USA in Iraq, I'd take a pic of a 5y old iraqi with burn wounds on his face and make up a story to tell how some amoral savages did that to him.

You obviously don't know shit about what you are talking about. You might be thinking fox news.

quote:

Originally posted by Gravgon If I were working for a big american media company such as CNN and wanted to legitimate the actions of the USA in Iraq, I'd take a pic of a 5y old iraqi with burn wounds on his face and make up a story to tell how some amoral savages did that to him.

the other thing that has to happen is the actual masked burning of a 5 year old

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Originally posted by infinity HiGH There's more to it than just "not being Muslim" you fucking idiot. Stop acting as if "terrorism" is an act that's fully permissible and embraced by, and exclusive to the whole Muslim religion when it's not.

Please point out where I said it was Muslims? Learn to read and comprehend toolbox.

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Originally posted by Orbax the other thing that has to happen is the actual masked burning of a 5 year old

This is pretty close:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mi...ast/5253160.stm

quote:

One of the soldiers, Steven Green, said he "wanted to go to a house and kill some Iraqis," it alleged. The four eventually went to a house about 200 metres (yards) away and put the parents and their five-year old daughter in the bedroom, but kept the older girl in the living room. According to Mr Barker's statement, he and Mr Cortez took it in turns to rape or attempt to rape her. Mr Barker heard shots from the bedroom, and Steven Green emerged with an AK-47 in his hand saying "They're all dead. I just killed them." According to the testimony, Mr Green then also raped the girl and shot her dead. Her body was doused in kerosene and set alight.

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Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

although I see your point, war time has horrific unjustifiable actions and always has.

I dont think the point that the middle east has a lot more brutal attacks that go largely unpunished...or they are punished, but so is the victim (funny thing about their law. If you get raped, you go to jail for having sex with a man - then in prison they rape you more in prison for being a horrible woman and do horrible things like put broom handles coated in hot sauce into various places causing permanent damage and requiring surgery - this has been documented multiple times. Plus the fun fact of raping you before killing you so you go to hell.)...stuff like that is invalidated. I dont care if my view of justice is subjective, I know theirs is totally Fd.

the difference is the details you posted came from - i believe, the court minutes. lemme rtfa

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Originally posted by Orbax although I see your point, war time has horrific unjustifiable actions and always has. I dont think the point that the middle east has a lot more brutal attacks that go largely unpunished...or they are punished, but so is the victim (funny thing about their law. If you get raped, you go to jail for having sex with a man - then in prison they rape you more in prison for being a horrible woman and do horrible things like put broom handles coated in hot sauce into various places causing permanent damage and requiring surgery - this has been documented multiple times. Plus the fun fact of raping you before killing you so you go to hell.)...stuff like that is invalidated. I dont care if my view of justice is subjective, I know theirs is totally Fd. the difference is the details you posted came from - i believe, the court minutes. lemme rtfa

Agreed. But in this particular case, it's just very frightening and sad what these guys decided to do. I doubt that you or I would think this was a good idea under any circumstances.

Everyone knows their view of justice is horrid, that doesn't make any of our failings ok though. But you can't beat ideas into people with wars. We have a history of only half-supporting moderates in the ME. Our alliance with Pakistan's Musharraf for example, or our complete hostility towards Iran (which has a huge amount of moderates who are working to change the country from the inside and push against religious law). Our faliure to secure Iraq early on in the occupation, to prevent looting, to prevent lawlessness, caused millions of moderate Iraqis to flee the country. When Bremer dissolved the Iraqi army in one pen signature he put hundreds of thousands of armed middle class people who were getting steady government paychecks on the street. What you're left with is the bottom half of society, religious fanatics, poor people who they can easily manipulate, people with much less to live for...etc. Those people are not going to push for change and human rights and all that stuff, that is not their concern. So now Iraq is fucked, and not worth much as a country besides it's oil revenue. What a shame that we had a chance to push it in the right direction and we failed miserably.

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Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

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Originally posted by Clovis Agreed. But in this particular case, it's just very frightening and sad what these guys decided to do. I doubt that you or I would think this was a good idea under any circumstances. Everyone knows their view of justice is horrid, that doesn't make any of our failings ok though. But you can't beat ideas into people with wars. We have a history of only half-supporting moderates in the ME. Our alliance with Pakistan's Musharraf for example, or our complete hostility towards Iran (which has a huge amount of moderates who are working to change the country from the inside and push against religious law). Our faliure to secure Iraq early on in the occupation, to prevent looting, to prevent lawlessness, caused millions of moderate Iraqis to flee the country. When Bremer dissolved the Iraqi army in one pen signature he put hundreds of thousands of armed middle class people who were getting steady government paychecks on the street. What you're left with is the bottom half of society, religious fanatics, poor people who they can easily manipulate, people with much less to live for...etc. Those people are not going to push for change and human rights and all that stuff, that is not their concern. So now Iraq is fucked, and not worth much as a country besides it's oil revenue. What a shame that we had a chance to push it in the right direction and we failed miserably.

Best post ever read on Iraq.Impressive

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Originally posted by Provocative_boi Best post ever read on Iraq.Impressive

You need to read more

Seriously though thats like a 3 line uber-summary of most of what is said in various books and articles I have been reading lately. It's all well-documented.

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Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

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Originally posted by Clovis When Bremer dissolved the Iraqi army in one pen signature he put hundreds of thousands of armed middle class people who were getting steady government paychecks on the street.

To add to this: it also put several thousand soldiers (former employees of the Baath party) onto the street. Due to numerous unguarded weapons caches that US forces failed to defend or even acknowledge effectively, what you get is several thousand armed men, trained in warfare and suddenly without pay. Their only options to continue feeding their families at this point are to join the Occupiers' designated and therefore ineffectual security force (which many did) or to join the "terrorist" resistance (which many eventually did after realizing that being on the security force was detrimental to their country's well-being).

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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On To add to this: it also put several thousand soldiers (former employees of the Baath party) onto the street. Due to numerous unguarded weapons caches that US forces failed to defend or even acknowledge effectively, what you get is several thousand armed men, trained in warfare and suddenly without pay. Their only options to continue feeding their families at this point are to join the Occupiers' designated and therefore ineffectual security force (which many did) or to join the "terrorist" resistance (which many eventually did after realizing that being on the security force was detrimental to their country's well-being).

+1

Would you rather:

1. Join forces with the Americans who just put you out of a job and risk your life training to be a cop/soldier (with their buildings being bombed/attacked by insurgents) for dirt pay and a completely uncertain future?

2. Become an insurgent, blow up Americans and Iraqis dumb enough to work for them, whilst igniting that firece islamist flame which was left dormant under Saddam, rekindled by the violent discourse of clerics now allowed to preach since the Baath party is no more...

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Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

And look who's coming along to try and help bail us out; it's FRANCE!



http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/22/w...r=1&oref=slogin

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“It’s time to stop lecturing the Americans about their errors and start contributing to a solution.”

This has needed to happen for years now - but unfortunately, our country has been too stubborn too ask for help.

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