For LazFX...

Very spookily I opened our paper today and inside was the following article...

quote:

MP says tension between young and old led to suicide bomber Click on thumbnail to view image Click on thumbnail to view image Click on thumbnail to view image Click on thumbnail to view image « Previous « Previous Next » Next » View Gallery By Mark Hookham The radicalisation of a West Yorkshire suicide bomber proves the need to heal tensions between young Muslim men and their elders, a leading MP has said. Nick Clegg, the Liberal Democrat's home affairs spokesman, said a recent study has suggested that Mohammad Sidique Khan was first pushed to extremism because he believed that "supine" Muslim elders in Leeds were not doing enough to stamp out drug dealing. He said improving relationships between generations is as important in countering Islamic extremism as boosting integration between communities. Mr Clegg, an MP in South Yorkshire, said it is becoming obvious that a "common driver for radicalisation amongst young Muslim men appears to be a breakdown of respect towards their own fathers and grandfathers". Writing in a new book on Liberal Democrat ideas, he added: "A recent analysis of the motivations of Mohammad Sidique Khan, one of the 7/7 suicide bombers, suggests that his radicalisation started with a growing sense of anger about what he viewed as the supine, conformist values of the first-generation immigrant elders of his community. "In particular, he appears to have been galvanised at a fairly early stage by the scourge of drug-dealing in his own community in Beeston, Leeds, to which he felt the older generations did not put up a sufficiently strong challenge." Mr Clegg, a frontrunner to succeed Sir Menzies Campbell as Lib Dem leader, cited an article by journalist Shiv Malik in Prospect magazine as the source of his information. He said there was a "pressing need" for local authorities and government to help community leaders "lest they are viewed as powerless or redundant by their own children and grandchildren". He said: "In as much as Islamist extremism appears to be a rejection of conventional, mainstream forms of Islam by the angry fundamentalism of younger Muslim men, it is clear that it is tensions between different generations within one community which are as important as, if not more important than, the lack of integration between communities." Mr Clegg's article also urges MI5 and MI6 to merge their counter-terrorism operations to tackle the influence of al-Qaeda activities in the Pakistan border region on extremists living in the North of England. He said the current division – with MI5 responsible for domestic threats while MI6 operates abroad – should be abolished. He said: "Al-Qaeda is also believed to have regrouped in the border region of Pakistan and Afghanistan – with direct implications for counter-terrorism in London or the North of England." And he called for the creation of a national anti-terror police force, in the same way that a force has been created to tackle serious and organised crime. http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co....oung.3196528.jp

I'd like to see evidence of that fact. All I see is Muslim militia's attacking eachother and eliminating smaller sect's. That much is clear. Their political goal's however are not quite as crystal and I fail to see how all this fighting is for equal right's among religion's. If this is the general Islamist goal in Iraq why are they fighting at all instead of uniting behind this magical and righteous political goal? Obviously somone is fighting to the contrary and you are therefore preaching a mis-informed view.

Infact, I'd like to see your full-list of political goal's for Muslim's to acheive through blowing themselves and their fellow Muslim's up in martydom and poorly conceived tactics and your explanation of why these people are combatting eachother.

___________________
Dont expect profoundness so much as relentless and pathological destruction.

quote:

Originally posted by The Arbiter I'd like to see evidence of that fact. All I see is Muslim militia's attacking eachother and eliminating smaller sect's. That much is clear. Their political goal's however are not quite as crystal and I fail to see how all this fighting is for equal right's among religion's. If this is the general Islamist goal in Iraq why are they fighting at all instead of uniting behind this magical and righteous political goal? Obviously somone is fighting to the contrary and you are therefore preaching a mis-informed view.

Iraq is a civil war. Two groups want control of the country. Pretty simple really

quote:

Originally posted by The Arbiter Infact, I'd like to see your full-list of political goal's for Muslim's to acheive through blowing themselves and their fellow Muslim's up in martydom and poorly conceived tactics and your explanation of why these people are combatting eachother.

But that would suggest that "blowing themselves up and their fellow" countrymen is somehow unique to Muslims - it's not. Terrorist groups have been planting bombs and killing civilians since bombs were invented. Come on man, we both live in a country that was the target of Irish terrorism since the 70s...

So logically, you attain this by killing civilian's. w00tness. Sorry, I don't buy it. This is deeper than a simple power struggle, alot of people who have no real affect on the power struggle are dying and the only logical (If you can really call it that) reason for killing them is differences in belief.

___________________
Dont expect profoundness so much as relentless and pathological destruction.

quote:

Originally posted by The Arbiter So logically, you attain this by killing civilian's. w00tness. Sorry, I don't buy it. This is deeper than a simple power struggle, alot of people who have no real affect on the power struggle are dying and the only logical (If you can really call it that) reason for killing them is differences in belief.

The only logical reason for killing them is differences in belief!?

What exactly are you basing that on?!

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley But that would suggest that "blowing themselves up and their fellow" countrymen is somehow unique to Muslims - it's not. Terrorist groups have been planting bombs and killing civilians since bombs were invented. Come on man, we both live in a country that was the target of Irish terrorism since the 70s...

Well yeah, seeying as the Irish didnt walk into London markets and detonated themselves for the sake of Martydom. Killing enemy civilian's works, but not when it's your own people and killing your own country-men signal's a deeper purpose.

___________________
Dont expect profoundness so much as relentless and pathological destruction.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley The only logical reason for killing them is differences in belief!? What exactly are you basing that on?!

Err, I should be asking you what your argument is based on. I've explained that inter-religion killing has not been localised to military action. Ifit was, your suggestion would be stomachable. However, innocent's are being killed and any political goal of religious unison in Iraq is long gone. Yet the violence continues.

___________________
Dont expect profoundness so much as relentless and pathological destruction.

quote:

Originally posted by The Arbiter Err, I should be asking you what your argument is based on. I've explained that inter-religion killing has not been localised to military action. Ifit was, your suggestion would be stomachable. However, innocent's are being killed and any political goal of religious unison in Iraq is long gone. Yet the violence continues.

I'm basing it on pretty much every civil war there's ever been...

...some, you'll be surprised to hear, did not involve any Muslims at all!

Civil war in other countries rarely breaks out with open war on civilian target's. Name one civil war that has recently directly involved the military aim of civilian slaughter? You won't find many. You'll find most political power struggle's result in a decleration of war on somone with power.

EDIT: Don't give me ethnic cleansing resulting in civil war either. I want a war similar to Iraq's were a specific military aim was to attack religious sect's and innocent civilians to gain 'Power'.

___________________
Dont expect profoundness so much as relentless and pathological destruction.

Last edited by The Arbiter on Sep-13-2007 at 14:19

quote:

Originally posted by The Arbiter Civil war in other countries rarely breaks out with open war on civilian target's. Name one civil war that has recently directly involved the military aim of civilian slaughter? You won't find many. You'll find most political power struggle's result in a decleration of war on somone with power.

Eh? Well can you give me any examples of civil wars where civilans haven't been targetted!?

Here's some where civilans took the brunt of the fighting...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angolan_Civil_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burundi_Civil_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Civil_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierra_Leone_Civil_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Wars

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic...ct_in_Sri_Lanka

I could go on but I can't be arsed. Maybe you can provide me with some civil wars where civilians have not been targetted? (BTW, I could also say that all acts off terrorism committed by terrorist groups located in the target country are acts of civil war, but you couldn't possibly try to tell me that terrorism never targets civilians!)