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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Torture is not natural but fields of quality-assured inbred chemically-altered beasts raised and fed for the sole purpose of generally unnecessary sustenance of an overindulgent species who scarcely understands the vastness of consumerism yet holds it in the highest regard is? We, as a species, largely abandoned mere survival some time ago. Everything else is torture. Unnecessary brutality in small increments to hide the sensation of pain. Gradual, but torture nevertheless. Good thing for us there is simply no such thing as "unnatural". It does not exist. Everything that happens occurs as a force of nature. We may very well be in denial of it and would love nothing more than to divorce ourselves from her uncaring and cruel rooftop, but there's not a single thing we can know or do to ever stop this fact. Much in the way a cat tortures a mouse before eventually devouring it, we are just the pawns of our physical "laws" - but they are not our laws to judge by. Pain is as natural a sensation as it gets - torture is just a facet of consumption. With this in mind, what is so unnatural about torture? What makes it so much more deplorable than eating? Is it not just another shade of the same thing?

We're resourceful and do that to benefit humanity. It allows us to put in less effort in preparing our food, have generally healthier food and in recent decades the standards for how animals should be treated have gone up a lot.

It isp essentially a survival aspect. I can't believe you're actively finding a way to put torture and hunting in the same boat. What we do, domesticated stock or wild hunting is still hunting. It's survival. Torture benefits us in no way but to give rare people a sick sense of pleasure out of another animals pain. What will it accomplish, will the cat tell you where the nuke in downtown NY is? Not that I agree with torture of humans either, but that's an entirely different scenario.

I won't disagree that we are an overindulgent species and that we could do a lot of things better but I will disagree that us eating is in some way a bad thing. If you look closely, we are actually the most humane in terms of feeding than anyone. We take care to kill the animals as quickly as possible, where as certain animals will begin to feed while their prey is still alive.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Good thing for us there is simply no such thing as "unnatural". It does not exist. Everything that happens occurs as a force of nature. We may very well be in denial of it and would love nothing more than to divorce ourselves from her uncaring and cruel rooftop, but there's not a single thing we can know or do to ever stop this fact.

PKC is right, you need to put down the hash pipe. Nature isn't a being. Things happen, they just do. I don't believe that everything in the world is planned and that we have no control. Now whether the world was created by a higher power and the laws set by something/someone/whatever is debatable, but I highly doubt that everything in life is planned.

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Originally posted by Spike +1 this argument is ridiculous. there IS NO argument to be made here lol. if u wanna torture animals; well, then sir you got issues

Most of the food I eat, I'm fairly sure the animal that provided it probably was in a way tortured.

I mean right down to eggs from battery hens. I could pick free range (and do sometimes) but when I'm buying 100 other things I'm likely just to go for the cheapest...

And isn't the life of a battery hen torture? How about force fed geese for foie gras?

What I'm saying is the way we raise the animals we eat is torture! We might dislike the thought of torturing an animal, most wouldn't like to kill one either. But it's all just denial.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Why did I steal it despite it being shaped like a cock??

i think we all know the answer to that one

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Originally posted by Fledz We're resourceful and do that to benefit humanity. It allows us to put in less effort in preparing our food, have generally healthier food and in recent decades the standards for how animals should be treated have gone up a lot.

We may be resourceful to the benefit of what we consider to be 'humanity' but that word is incredibly general. Has our definition of what 'humanity' actually is not changed draastically over history? Is not every work of art, work of war, every invention or discovery, every social development or regression of some sort made a significant difference in terms of what our 'humanity' is? It is not some constant element or virtue exclusive to us - we are mere animals whose very nature is to deny our nature.

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It isp essentially a survival aspect. I can't believe you're actively finding a way to put torture and hunting in the same boat. What we do, domesticated stock or wild hunting is still hunting. It's survival. Torture benefits us in no way but to give rare people a sick sense of pleasure out of another animals pain. What will it accomplish, will the cat tell you where the nuke in downtown NY is? Not that I agree with torture of humans either, but that's an entirely different scenario.

Most hunting that occurs is unnecessary. There is more than enough food to sustain humans in certain regions of the world as well as a severe deficiency in others. But humans, as yet another component to our humanity, are never quite content with merely getting by. It is not a part of our nature. Things must be healthy, they must taste good, be appealing to our physical as well as social sensibilities and above all, must come from a source to conceal the truth of our consumption. Most people would not eat at all in the presence of an animal being slaughtered or if they saw who was picking their vegetables and fruit.

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I won't disagree that we are an overindulgent species and that we could do a lot of things better but I will disagree that us eating is in some way a bad thing. If you look closely, we are actually the most humane in terms of feeding than anyone. We take care to kill the animals as quickly as possible, where as certain animals will begin to feed while their prey is still alive.

You're still thinking on the 'good' and 'bad' level? Wow.

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PKC is right, you need to put down the hash pipe. Nature isn't a being. Things happen, they just do. I don't believe that everything in the world is planned and that we have no control. Now whether the world was created by a higher power and the laws set by something/someone/whatever is debatable, but I highly doubt that everything in life is planned.

It's not really up for argument.

Nature as a force unable to be 'conquered' by humans is apodeictic. We can invent and discover all that we like, but we are still playing in somebody else's backyard. This is not an appeal to deism nor a theological discussion, but if you're not quite able to second guess what we know of 'God', 'Nature', 'Consumerism' and 'Torture', then I don't think you are prepared to argue.

'Torture' is an infliction of manipulation. The derivation of pleasure/pain from either inflicting it or being afflicted by it are slightly more specific concepts, but the essence of torture is merely the exertion of physical or mental status. With this in mind, torture is no rare thing.

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Last edited by Halcyon+On+On on Jan-02-2008 at 05:00

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i think we all know the answer to that one

It's actually molded from your own cock, isn't it? Would explain why it's so small, I've managed to misplace it already.

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torturing animals needs to be considered a serious deviation and authorities should keep an eye on such people and shoot them if they behave suspiciously. period.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Nobody needs to eat meat to survive.

Ah, so you're a doctor now? Not only that, but you know every other human being's physiology based on your own guesstimations from information hearsay you've heard tossed around.

Have you "survived" without meat? You did eat meat as a kid, right?

And you still do.

Discuss.

You do not need meat to live.

If you feel like arguing, perhaps you should become an accredited medical physician yourself, only then will you be qualified to even participate in the discussion, given your own logic.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On You do not need meat to live. If you feel like arguing, perhaps you should become an accredited medical physician yourself, only then will you be qualified to even participate in the discussion, given your own logic.

You're a scientific example of my "illogical" theory being correct.

You have eaten meat, right?

I'd wager you'd find a hell of a lot more records of children who died from NOT being fed meat and proteins, than you would otherwise.

Qualifications are not in question, for the record, but thanks for the ad hominem attempt.

Isn't there some retarded statistic that a huge percentage of arsonists/serial arsonists at one point in their lives tortured animals?

Pretty whack.

The only reason I can see for killing animals being better than torturing them is that most animals don't actually "fear" death, where as they can quite clearly suffer from the torture.

Also, lets face it, animals are 100% innocent. They do not have malicious intentions like some humans do, therefore they deserve to be treated fairly, and fair is ending their lives in a quick and painless fashion and then using the animals remains to their fullest.

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