quote:

Originally posted by EvilTree lol. so, instead of voluntarily giving money to charity, you support the governmment from forcibly taking money from people?

+1

___________________
Music was my first love
and it will be my last
Music of the future
And music of the past
To live without my music
would be impossible to do
Cause in these times of trouble
My music pulls me through...

quote:

Originally posted by Rodrico To be honest, I dont mind the big guy up there, I just hate all his fanclubs.

***I've got hairgel in my bathroom and Tylenol near my bed***

guys get this straight once and for all, any tax break will benefit more those who pay more taxes.

I don't understand why people are so shocked about that everytime there's a tax break!

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quote:

Originally posted by 7-4-7 this is six and 1/2 dozen of the other.

LOL!!

The expression is:

"six to one, 1/2 dozen to the other"


that made me smile tonite

quote:

Originally posted by Spam Politicians who keep their word? I'm cool with that.

Aye. Exactly.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 Are there better ways to cut taxes? Maybe or maybe not. The point is THEY ARE CUTTING TAXES and those who are against this would probably also be the first ones bitching if harper RAISED the GST.

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quote:

Originally posted by malek guys get this straight once and for all, any tax break will benefit more those who pay more taxes. I don't understand why people are so shocked about that everytime there's a tax break!

NO! This statement is just incorrect. Since you have little understanding of the tax system, I will lay it out for you.
Income tax cuts in all but the highest tax bracket will have a maximum amount. For example: A cut of 1% in the second tax bracket would give a break of up to 370$/year. This is because this bracket only covers earnings between 37 and 74k. 1% of 37k=370. The GST cut on the other hand has an unlimited potential of gain depending on how much you can spend. Got 1 mil to spend this year? Then you stand to save 10k where I will probably save a couple hundred bucks. This is why people, many of whom are probably "middle class", oppose this cut, and the government which implemented it.

quote:

Originally posted by miketg23 Since you have little understanding of the tax system, I will lay it out for you.

are you for real

you just don't get it.

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debating the finer points of our income tax system is realy not the point here.

1. the majority of Canadians are NOT going to realize significant savings with the GST cut.

2. the billions in "lost" GST revenue (that's ~$12 billion with both cuts) could have been better spent paying down the national debt and addressing our decaying infrastructure, to name just two worthwhile options.

how about investing those billions in R&D with regard to the inevitable energy issues relating to oil supply and prices or electricity costs? or paying down the debt so that there is less to service and the country enjoys the compounded savings in future years? what about our decaying roads, water systems, transit, etc?

I bet the GST cuts = a lot of votes though.

people eat this shit up because they don't see a direct, personal benefit to themselves with any of the other options. instead they prefer to "pay less taxes" without even taking a few minutes to calculate exactly what this cut means...which isn't much.

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT debating the finer points of our income tax system is realy not the point here. 1. the majority of Canadians are NOT going to realize significant savings with the GST cut. 2. the billions in "lost" GST revenue (that's ~$12 billion with both cuts) could have been better spent paying down the national debt and addressing our decaying infrastructure, to name just two worthwhile options. how about investing those billions in R&D with regard to the inevitable energy issues relating to oil supply and prices or electricity costs? or paying down the debt so that there is less to service and the country enjoys the compounded savings in future years? what about our decaying roads, water systems, transit, etc? I bet the GST cuts = a lot of votes though. people eat this shit up because they don't see a direct, personal benefit to themselves with any of the other options. instead they prefer to "pay less taxes" without even taking a few minutes to calculate exactly what this cut means...which isn't much.

I only agree with you about the infrastructures as our debt is not an issue at this moment.

About the "lost" money, its far from being lost. That 12 billion will be left in the economy to be spent by citizens and corporations which will return to the govt some way or the other be it by income taxes on salaries or consumption taxes... nothing is lost Mark.

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quote:

Originally posted by malek are you for real you just don't get it.

Beyond the rolling of your eyes and saying I just don't get it, what is your counter point?

quote:

Originally posted by malek I only agree with you about the infrastructures as our debt is not an issue at this moment. About the "lost" money, its far from being lost. That 12 billion will be left in the economy to be spent by citizens and corporations which will return to the govt some way or the other be it by income taxes on salaries or consumption taxes... nothing is lost Mark.

you're right...it's not entirely "lost" as the money goes back into the economy in one form or another, whether through spending, savings, etc.

but how is the debt not an issue "at the moment"? the % of gov't revenue spent just *servicing* the national debt is staggering:

http://www.fin.gc.ca/taxdollar/text...pamphlet_e.html

"The largest single federal spending item in 2004–05 was interest payments on Canada’s public debt (that is, money borrowed by the central government over the years, which has not yet been repaid to the lenders). These payments—to institutions and people who hold federal bonds, treasury bills and other forms of the debt—cost $34.1 billion. That’s just over 17 cents of every tax dollar."

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT you're right...it's not entirely "lost" as the money goes back into the economy in one form or another, whether through spending, savings, etc. but how is the debt not an issue "at the moment"? the % of gov't revenue spent just *servicing* the national debt is staggering: http://www.fin.gc.ca/taxdollar/text...pamphlet_e.html "The largest single federal spending item in 2004–05 was interest payments on Canada’s public debt (that is, money borrowed by the central government over the years, which has not yet been repaid to the lenders). These payments—to institutions and people who hold federal bonds, treasury bills and other forms of the debt—cost $34.1 billion. That’s just over 17 cents of every tax dollar."

I don't want to get into details, but lets just say that intrest rates are really low, debt to gdp ratio is much better, the economy is doing really good and finally that most of Canadian debt is held by Canadians... which means that most of that intrests paid is taxed (and returns to the govt). So really, the debt should be the last of our worries when there's a great need for infrastructures everywhere, when universities are in need and when companies should benefit from lower taxations to be competitive on a global scale.

P.S. RND is always a cherry on top, should never be ignored.

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quote:

Originally posted by MarkT you're right...it's not entirely "lost" as the money goes back into the economy in one form or another, whether through spending, savings, etc. but how is the debt not an issue "at the moment"? the % of gov't revenue spent just *servicing* the national debt is staggering: http://www.fin.gc.ca/taxdollar/text...pamphlet_e.html "The largest single federal spending item in 2004–05 was interest payments on Canada’s public debt (that is, money borrowed by the central government over the years, which has not yet been repaid to the lenders). These payments—to institutions and people who hold federal bonds, treasury bills and other forms of the debt—cost $34.1 billion. That’s just over 17 cents of every tax dollar."

The government has paid off 10 billion dollars in debt in ONLY less than 2 years. Thats an amazing amount of money. AND they still are giving us our tax cuts. So they are paying down the debt AND stimulating the economy.

SOUNDS GOOD TO ME!!

AND who started the debt? why it was every lefty's hero in this land of ours. Trudeau!

As for the infrastructure, im sure mayors like miller etc would see more money if only they had their own fiscal shambles in order first.


So whats the problem with lower taxes again?

it "sounds good" to you? It "sounds good" to a lot of people. others are actually looking at the numbers (instead of what "sounds good") and are trying to show that it's really not that significant at all...and perhaps the money could possibly be put to better use.

maybe instead of saying it "sounds good" you can explain to me why a GST cut is BETTER than further paying down the national debt, or investing in R&D, or investing in our infrastructure or even more aggressive income tax cuts which don't require one to "spend" in order to "save"?

I still have yet to see a decent argument here to that effect. because you think that some debt repayment + GST cuts "sounds good" is a rather poor answer.

and it's irrelevant why the debt came from...it's here. just as it's irrelevant (though ironic) that the Tories are partially repealing the tax they introduced in the first place. (insert remark about the Liberals failing to remove it...as if that excuses Mulroney from introducing it in the first place).

the CPC has been in power for less than one year, so referring to debt reduction before then is to compliment the Liberals (and the Liberals were paying off more per year than the current CPC gov't has or intends to do, AFAI can tell from previous figures).

an interesting, though dated (2002), read:

http://www.ppforum.ca/common/assets...ederal_debt.pdf

quote:

"One of the least noticed actions of the current federal government during the past five years has been its decision to use some of the surplus revenue to pay down the national debt. In fact, over the last five years, the federal government has reduced the national debt by $46.7 billion from a high of over $580 billion to the current level of approximately $536 billion. (See Table 1.) This is a significant action that deserves more public scrutiny and debate. Paying down debt is a relatively invisible policy decision, and identifiable winners and loser are hard to find. As a result, the media has shown little interest - there was almost no media coverage of the federal government's debt management policies that John Manley described in the economic statement that he delivered in Halifax on October 30th. The cumulative impact of these pay-downs will have dramatic implications for all taxpayers, but particularly for future generations of Canadians. For example, the pay-downs have already resulted in a saving of more than $3 billion a year in debt interest costs. As a consequence, the debt to GDP ratio has dropped from 71% to 49%, which represents the best decline among G-7 countries. Canada's credit rating has been boosted to Triple-A status by Moody's Investor Service and Standard and Poor's.

which is exactly my point. debt reduction provides very tangible benefits...some right away, but especially in the future. yet it's not perceived as a big deal to the average person because they can't perceive a personal and immediate benefit to themselves. GST cut = vote grab.


http://www.budget.gc.ca/2007/bp/bpa2e.html

this provides more up to date info from Flaherty last year. It's good...and admittedly the Tories have historically been fiscally good...but I'd be happy to see them accelerate that schedule to eliminate the annual debt. the more that is paid off sooner, the more money the country saves in interest payments...money that can then be "given back" to us in income tax cuts or used for the other initiatives I mentioned.

I just think the GST cut is more vote grab than sensible policy when we have other pressing issues. It allows the CPC to "keep a promise" and it "sounds good" to people who don't care to give fiscal policy more thought beyond what it does for themselves as individuals, no matter how insignificant that GST cut proves to be.

anway...I'm repeating myself and don't really care to debate it further. I simply see better options for that money. If people choose to think that a combined 2% GST cut is the way to go...good for them, I guess.

I just wish that people would put more thought into the matter by *at least* taking the time to figure out what those cuts *really* mean for them and the country as a whole. Then consider what the alternatives are...then form an opinion.