quote:

Originally posted by plaxx

I'm not going to respond to most of that drivel. I think almost everybody else here will read it the same way I did. I will however respond to the last comment "recommending" XCode, since that may be a little less obvious to the peanut gallery.

The problem with development on Macs isn't the IDE (dev application), it's the framework. Objective-C and Cocoa are crap. Just the idea of having to put a separate text box and scroll bar on a form and wire them together yourself is enough to make almost any professional developer insane. They didn't even have garbage collection until a couple of years ago.

Apple went totally off their nut in this respect trying to make a framework that was flexible. Nobody wants that. When you're building stuff, flexibility equals tedium. 99% of all functionality in all software uses the exact same controls, and for things which don't fit into those categories, developers usually elect to write it themselves from scratch.

Cocoa forces you to do all kinds of pointless boilerplate work and tries to force you into a specific development paradigm, which is exactly the kind of thing I'd expect from Apple. Jobs' ruthless micromanagement may work fine in Apple's own offices, but if he thinks he can foist it on outside developers, on smart people who have already been spoiled by the ability to throw together a decent UI in 3 minutes using Visual Studio, he's very much mistaken.

.NET on the other hand is brilliant. It's Java without the suck. Everything makes sense. Everything is cohesive. The hierarchy is intuitive, the syntax and semantics are consistent across the library, even the primitives mostly just do what they're supposed to do without you having to write 500 lines of extra crap in order to make it happen. It's brainlessly easy to develop for phones if you want. Yeah, it's got plenty of faults - every framework does - but nothing else on the market right now can hold a candle to it. Nothing.

If you're not in this industry then you have no idea what you're talking about with respect to development on the Mac. It's crap crappy crap and that's all there is to it. It's not even debatable. You won't find one person in the industry who's spent any significant time developing in Visual Studio willing to say that it's better on Macs. And it doesn't matter how wonderful the platform is, if you can't get developers to support it then you'll always be a bit player, like the Atari Jaguar.

You yourself pointed out that there are millions of little freeware apps out there for Windows and almost none for Macs - do you honestly believe that's because all of it's already available on the Mac? That's not even possible with all of the vastly different hobbies and interests out there. Those applications aren't on the Mac because nobody wants to make them, because not only is the target market tiny but the process rates somewhere between getting your gums scraped and shaving your nutsack with the guard off.

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quote:

Originally posted by Orko M$

And there goes your credibility. Go back to /. please.

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My party schedule:
2009-02-21 - DJ Attention @ I'm So Popular
2009-06-18 - DJ Annoying @ People Need To Know Where I'll Be
2012-11-32 - DJ Insufferable ɸ Or At Least the Stalkers I Complain About
2048-06-66 - Spastic & Whocares ¶ Although I'm Actually Flattered
9999-45-81 - Tweaker Gimp ☼ I Probably Won't Even Go To This But I Have To Make Sure I Fill Up All The Available Space Here

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Those applications aren't on the Mac because nobody wants to make them, because not only is the target market tiny but the process rates somewhere between getting your gums scraped and shaving your nutsack with the guard off.

I'll never look at Mac applications in the same way again

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I really hope those school kids got shinny new computers labs.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut

I'm not familiar with any aspect of software development so most of that is irrelevant to me. I will say this though, OS X is built using the XCode development environment, which is proof enough for me. OS X is far better than Vista, or any other OS put out by Microsoft, now and in the future.

For me, there are applications for Mac which I couldnt work without, and they have to be matched with anything in the PC world.

Coda
Textmate
Transmit

just to name a few. OS X is a solid built operating system. Nothing is overlooked and everything is fixed, and not flimsy like Vista. The people who make software for OS X know this, and thats why the software works. It's not like the visual style for OS X changes to OS 8 if you run an application thats older.

At the end of the day, it what you choose to work with. For me, Macs work better. A lot of people who don't like Macs, just don't like them because they don't want to get out of their Windows comfort zone. This applies especially to developers, and programmers, because they don't want to go through that learning curve again.

ok seriously i dont know why any of us are even bothering responding to plaxx.

anyways...the irony of the whole mac campaign is how they compare a Mac (actual physical pile of expensive crap) to an operating system

one should think about this Mac has been dependent on developing both OS AND hardware to use the OS on to generate their income. While Microsoft has been strictly software until say a decade or so ago when they started creating non computer devices (xbox, zune etc. oh and yes i know that there have been I/O devices such as mice, keyboards and joysticks that theyve had for a long time but those are manufactured by other companies and the name slapped on it)


and whenever u speak to any mac user regardless of how smart they come off as (well the 150 or so users i know), they have no valid reason as to why they bought and are using the mac but the standard line is "macs are better than pcs"...."why?"...."just cos it is"..."oh yea?"


Dear Mac users,

WE DONT CARE IF U THINK UR COOL COS U SPENT TWICE THE AMOUNT ON UR MAC THAN WE DID ON OUR PCS AND THAT SHOULD U WANT TO UPGRADE ANY SINGLE PIECE OF HARDWARE ON UR COMPUTER, UR OPTIONS ARE SO LIMITED AS COMPARED TO THE OPTIONS WE HAVE COS UR SO COOOOOOL.

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quote:

Originally posted by El K Dee (xbox, zune etc. oh and yes i know that there have been I/O devices such as mice, keyboards and joysticks that theyve had for a long time but those are manufactured by other companies and the name slapped on it)

Same with the Zune and Xbox. The Zune is actually produced by Toshiba, after their line of Gigabeat players failed to make any sort of impression on the market.

(Just splitting hairs)

quote:

Originally posted by Orko Same with the Zune and Xbox. The Zune is actually produced by Toshiba, after their line of Gigabeat players failed to make any sort of impression on the market. (Just splitting hairs)

yea i know..but lets just say marketed and sold with importance as compared to the I/O devices previously

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quote:

Originally posted by plaxx I'm not familiar with any aspect of software development so most of that is irrelevant to me. I will say this though, OS X is built using the XCode development environment, which is proof enough for me.

If that's your standard of proof, it's clearly useless to try to have an intellectual discussion with you. This is called circular reasoning, or begging the question: OS X is great, because all of its apps are great, and I know XCode is great because it was used to create OS X (which is great).

Even if you had a sliver of objective evidence that OS X is as great as you want to believe, that really doesn't prove anything about XCode. Banks and insurance companies use efficient, rock-solid systems made in COBOL, one of the worst platforms ever conceived. Most medical systems are based on some type of embedded C - the same language Windows is built on. Hell, some of the most beautiful sculptures ever created were made with not much other than a chisel and some stone; does that mean they're good tools to use when you're building a skyscraper?

You could not possibly be more full of shit. If you had just said you happen to like Macs better as a personal preference (as others in this thread have done), nobody would have taken you to task over it. But no, just like the stereotypical "I'm a Mac" asshole, you had to fly in on your doucheplane and start showering your douchenuggets over everybody else.

Finally, I cannot believe you'd criticize developers for not wanting to "go through the learning curve again". Are you really this fucking stupid? You know nothing about the craft and yet you consider yourself fit to pass judgment like this? Developers have to keep up with massive amounts of technological change; the learning curve never ends. Learning a new language, a new framework, is nothing, it's easy peasy if you understand the fundamentals of algorithms and software design. Developers don't hate Macs because they would have to learn something, they hate Macs because developing software for the Mac is a fucking pain in the ass. End of discussion!

Even after I explained it in the last post, you still don't understand the difference between an IDE (XCode), a framework (Cocoa), and a programming language (Objective-C). Just cut your losses and shut up while there are still 3 people on the forum who don't think you're a moron.

___________________
My party schedule:
2009-02-21 - DJ Attention @ I'm So Popular
2009-06-18 - DJ Annoying @ People Need To Know Where I'll Be
2012-11-32 - DJ Insufferable ɸ Or At Least the Stalkers I Complain About
2048-06-66 - Spastic & Whocares ¶ Although I'm Actually Flattered
9999-45-81 - Tweaker Gimp ☼ I Probably Won't Even Go To This But I Have To Make Sure I Fill Up All The Available Space Here