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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Compound interest and debt? Not exactly, interest... no duh! Most cultures also generally recognized it for what it is, extortion. Now you just have a centralized institutions doing it, and most people are oblivious to it and it's consequences. The Knights Templars were persecuted by the Church for this very reason, they brought the practice to Europe on a large scale.

By centralized institution, you mean the Federal Reserve, correct? Debt is a product. When you want a product, you must pay for it. When you want debt, you must pay for it; INTEREST. It's only fair.

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Originally posted by Krypton By centralized institution, you mean the Federal Reserve, correct? Debt is a product. When you want a product, you must pay for it. When you want debt, you must pay for it; INTEREST. It's only fair.

LOL, debt is not a "product." By centralized institutions, I'm referring to not the Fed specifically, but all central banks. You do know what the word centralized means right ?

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"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z LOL, debt is not a "product." By centralized institutions, I'm referring to not the Fed specifically, but all central banks. You do know what the word centralized means right ?

debt absolutely is a product - a financial product that bankers were (and some still are) making millions of dollars selling to people and institutions.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 debt absolutely is a product - a financial product that bankers were (and some still are) making millions of dollars selling to people and institutions.

Of course it's a product from that perspective, but it's not a product in the conventional sense at all. It's not like a perishable item like food for example. Or a product like your furniture, car, cds, ipod etc. It bears no resemblance to any other goods that you'd find in a market place or for barter.

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"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z PKC, if you enrolled in Economics 101, you should already know that macro-economics didn't exist prior to the Great Depression and the very reason why it arose as a field of study was to explain the phenomenon and why the banks collapsed. Maynard Keynes looked in to the matter to come up with an explanation for what had happened, and it was only after the fact that micro-economics became an academic discipline. Even my macroeconomics text book makes this fact clear. That not exactly a starting point free from bias .

so what?

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z EDIT: Note, Keynes was a British Economist, attempting to explain a crisis in the US, which makes it highly unlikely he had access to all the relevant information for starters. The late 1800's / early 1900's weren't exactly the information age you know .

you mean the rest of the world, not just the US right?

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN so what? you mean the rest of the world, not just the US right?

Did that really go over your head? If that is the case, never mind.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Did that really go over your head? If that is the case, never mind.

No, im simply asking you for clarification.

are you saying that the generally-accepted causes of the depression are wrong? or are you saying that the institutions and understandings that arose from the great depression and/or early banking problems are somehow immoral or unethical or even unnecessary? are you saying that our lessons were learned badly in previous economic crises and that there are no solid grounds for arguing in favour of central banks?

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Originally posted by Krypton By centralized institution, you mean the Federal Reserve, correct? Debt is a product. When you want a product, you must pay for it. When you want debt, you must pay for it; INTEREST. It's only fair.

Another thing, I also DO NOT want it, anywhere fucking near me (and no one else should have to bother with it either) but the system we live under makes it virtually unavoidable pragmatically. And no, it's not fair. Making money out of thin air is not wealth anybody earned. That's not work, that taking advantage of your inherited wealth; extorting the general population who would never need to take any loans if it weren't for the economic system we have, interest and debt being the specific. Class wars, those who have an abundance of capital, generally those with inherited wealth, are the only beneficiaries. It doesn't take a genius or a degree, or reading Marx, or anything like that to figure out something that basic.

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"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN No, im simply asking you for clarification. are you saying that the generally-accepted causes of the depression are wrong?

I think they're definitely wrong, or at the very least I see little reason to give unquestionable legitimacy or absolute authority to a non-science who's premises are directly related to the question at hand.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN or are you saying that the institutions and understandings that arose from the great depression and/or early banking problems are somehow immoral or unethical or even unnecessary?

I didn't necessarily call them immoral or unethical, although they probably are and I certainly don't agree with many of the value assumptions made. And yes, I do think central banks, at least the way we know them today, are absolutely unnecessary and counter productive to public / collective interests.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN are you saying that our lessons were learned badly in previous economic crises and that there are no solid grounds for arguing in favour of central banks?

Well, I wasn't really even making a reference to that but no matter how much you'd like to thing of non-sciences as being 'rational' or objective, they absolutely are not. Calculus isn't exactly very sophisticated, and economics doesn't really incorporate much more than that as far as rational and mathematical models go; if I remember correctly, I was 16 and I learned the whole damn thing by myself in 3 months and took the test. You can't really expect me take such a primitive non scientific discipline so seriously, especially when the status quo hasn't really changed since it's inception, which would be based on incomplete and questionable information. That the worst kind of circular logic I've seen in an argument thus far. Not exactly a very convincing:

A -> B, since B is true, A must be true.

Eh, no. That violated a very fundamental principle, and makes the argument completely devoid of logic.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

im still confused...

let's forget the marxist twaddle for a minute, we're talking about the real world. if we wanna talk about the evils of capitalism we can always start a new thread and ill be happy to contribute.

BUT...in the real world, could you please explain to me how you believe the economy should be regulated without a central bank?

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Of course it's a product from that perspective, but it's not a product in the conventional sense at all. It's not like a perishable item like food for example. Or a product like your furniture, car, cds, ipod etc. It bears no resemblance to any other goods that you'd find in a market place or for barter.

i think youre confusing bad debt with good debt. good debt has value and is ultimately "perishable". it appreciates in value and can depreciate. and as recently as this year was very tradable among financial markets in the form of mortgage backed securities.

i only learned this a couple years ago trying to get my real estate licence.

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Originally posted by Q5echo good debt has value

it certainly does! its how im planning to make all my money

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