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Originally posted by Shakka Why should health-care be free?

Because it's a right

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What if there were no qualified doctors willing to work at your wages?

Doctors are extremely highly paid, probably the highest paid professionals, why would they not want to work as doctors?

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Would you force them to do it?

What the fuck are you on about now?

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We have a public education system (which is quite good or quite bad depending on your locale)

Which is pretty shocking in your inner cities right? They simply do not get the same standards of education as those educated privately

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I don't necessarily share your opinion of what constitutes a "basic right."

You don't believe that people have the right to an education?

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Furthermore, based on your comment, it would seem that you believe the solution to any societal ills is simply more taxes

If you can't afford what you need, then taxes need to be raised yes. My preferred method would be to raise it from big business or societies rich, as they can afford it

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Yay! I guess that's pretty good as long as you're a member of the ruling elite, eh?

You're the one parroting the desires of the ruling elite, not me

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Show me where I explicitly said that.

You said: "The bottom line is that you want government to arbitrarily forcibly take money from those that have made it into the weaker hands of those that have not". That, my friend, is what taxes ARE (altho most sane people wouldn't describe it like that)

So, second time of asking, do you think nobody should have to pay taxes?

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Originally posted by George Smiley Because people born into money have an unfair advantage over those not born into money, even somebody like you can't possibly be pig headed enough to deny that?! Fairness means equal opportunities for all...

OMFG...are you serious?

So if I go out, create a multimillion dollar company only to have some jerk in office tell me my success is not fair and 'redistribute' (aka rip off) my money to some f$#@ing slobs who has done nothing with their lives, that's somehow FAIR???.
Wtf man!

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by Shakka Don't worry folks, Obama will make it better.

I feel sorry for you guys down there...I really do...

Last time I checked the Democrat were blue right....not commie red?

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r OMFG...are you serious? So if I go out, create a multimillion dollar company only to have some jerk in office tell me my success is not fair and 'redistribute' (aka rip off) my money to some f$#@ing slobs who has done nothing with their lives, that's somehow FAIR???. Wtf man!

I'm sure you'll miss all $700 of your money. But that's beside the point.

Do you not understand what "equal opportunity" even means?

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I think "fair" is a system where you have to earn your success - I don't think many people disagree. But I fail to see how a perpetuation of the divide between rich and poor creates an equal footing between people. I believe in equality - not of wealth, but of opportunity. And the system Shakka and the rest are promoting does not create equal opportunity, it merely reinforces the same divide that already exists, whereby the rich will always be elite and the poor will always be powerless.

There isn't a magical solution in bringing everyone over from the 'poor side' without dragging the successful ones down to the poor one's level though.
It's a fallicy to think that even distribution of wealth would ever work or even remain in such a state - over time that wealth will just eventually find it's way back to the people in which it was stolen in the first place.

You've already found the solution in your first line, "...a system where you have to earn your success".
Yes people, it's called 'sweat equity' something everyone has but are unwilling to do - it's just easier to bitch and complain and have the government give you a handout.
Why anyone would actually WANT the government to run your lives for you is really beyond financial comprehension. \
NOBODY has ever had their dreams or finanical asperations come to fruition via government alms...

What's desparately needed is non-partisan, basic, personal financial education.
How to budget, how to handle money, what is money, etc., etc.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by George Smiley Because it's a right

Again--says who? I repeat, what if there were no doctors--how would one attain said "right?" If you have a right to something, you shouldn't be dependent on someone or something else to provide it for you. What other rights do people have that they are dependent on others to provide? Health care is a service that is provided by a knowledgeable and qualified professional for a fee, for his/her service. It is not a right that you can just demand.

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Doctors are extremely highly paid, probably the highest paid professionals, why would they not want to work as doctors?

And if you continue to force health care as some sort of right, regardless of price, you will force down the price for services to artificially low levels that will likely induce some of the most qualified people to leave the market. Why would someone want to go to all of the trouble of becoming a doctor if the government tells them they have to practice for a pittance because every single person has an unencumbered right to health care according to George.

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What the fuck are you on about now?

See above.

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Which is pretty shocking in your inner cities right? They simply do not get the same standards of education as those educated privately

Well George, no offense, but it's pretty hard to argue why something that is free should be of equal or better quality to something that costs a small fortune. Though some public schools in big cities are every bit as good as their private school counterparts it's a hard argument to make that they should be by default. Of course, with lobbyists and teachers' unions protesting the enforcement of standards, how do you expect quantifiable improvement in the public education system?

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You're the one parroting the desires of the ruling elite, not me

I have no desire to be in the ruling elite.

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You said: "The bottom line is that you want government to arbitrarily forcibly take money from those that have made it into the weaker hands of those that have not". That, my friend, is what taxes ARE (altho most sane people wouldn't describe it like that) So, second time of asking, do you think nobody should have to pay taxes?

No. Taxes are a fact of life and are the dues we pay to live in what I consider to be a wonderful nation. However, the current tax code is more than progressive enough and punitive enough for my blood. I work for the government for 1/3 of the year. That sucks. The government has more than enough revenue to accomplish more than the requisite basic functions that they should be responsible for. They can balance the fucking budget and leave me to figure out how to spend the 65% of my gross income that I do actually get to take home.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I'm sure you'll miss all $700 of your money. But that's beside the point. Do you not understand what "equal opportunity" even means?

Actually I won't since you may have missed what flag I fly under...

And it IS the point actually.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r There isn't a magical solution in bringing everyone over from the 'poor side' without dragging the successful ones down to the poor one's level though. It's a fallicy to think that even distribution of wealth would ever work or even remain in such a state - over time that wealth will just eventually find it's way back to the people in which it was stolen in the first place. You've already found the solution in your first line, "...a system where you have to earn your success". Yes people, it's called 'sweat equity' something everyone has but are unwilling to do - it's just easier to bitch and complain and have the government give you a handout. Why anyone would actually WANT the government to run your lives for you is really beyond financial comprehension. \ NOBODY has ever had their dreams or finanical asperations come to fruition via government alms... What's desparately needed is non-partisan, basic, personal financial education. How to budget, how to handle money, what is money, etc., etc.

For God's sake, nobody has been talking about even distribution of wealth. We're talking about equality of opportunity - a system in which every person has an equal opportunity to succeed regardless of how much money they are born into.

___________________

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r OMFG...are you serious? So if I go out, create a multimillion dollar company only to have some jerk in office tell me my success is not fair and 'redistribute' (aka rip off) my money to some f$#@ing slobs who has done nothing with their lives, that's somehow FAIR???. Wtf man!

Let me put this into a nice analogy.

I'm an engineer, with benefits, overtime and expenses, i make around 95-100K per year CDN$. I pay a shit load of taxes, but that doesnt bother me at all, i still have loads of money kicking around to pay down debt, pay for my living expenses, save for a rainy day and blow on stupid things.

The reason im not pissed about it is because when i got to mcdonalds, there is some shmuck there to serve me my fries, when i take my trash out in the morning, there is some guy that comes by in a truck to pick up my trash. There are hundreds of jobs that i would never want to do myself.

People who work these jobs (minimum wage, shit jobs) need some kind of incentive to keep doing it. Not everyone is intelligent enough to do what i do, or be a doctor, or lawyer etc. I think it is socially responsible to make sure that our tax system allows these people to maintain a good standard of living while providing a service. Just because im make a good salary doesnt mean i deserve to be pushed to the front of the line at the hospital, nor does it mean that my kids should get first pick of schooling etc. education and healthcare are the two great equalizers in society. If you're well educated and healthy, your are on equal footing with everyone else weather you came with a silver spoon shoved up your ass or you came from nothing.

I dont mind paying extra in tax to make sure people get fair and equal access to a good education and health care.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN I have 3 hobbies: gaming, DJing & correcting maladjusted fools on the internet.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Yeah, I’d like to know what horrible, scarring incident in your childhood turned you into such an ignorant, intellectual-hating philistine?

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Actually I won't since you may have missed what flag I fly under... And it IS the point actually.

If you're going to hide behind your flag, why are you even commenting on American politics?

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Originally posted by Kapedano That's a bunch of bullshit. I immigrated to this country and did not have the "advantage" of most Americans and I still am doing better. This country has everything you need to get where you want.

My paternal grandfather was raised in an orphanage and wound up becoming a self-made millionaire back in the 1950's so if that's not proof that our system works I don't know what else is.

Now I could be mistaken but from what I've gathered, Socialism actually seems to buck the entire process of natural selection so that those of us who were endowed with a higher degree of capability are often made to suffer for it (unless they were somehow lucky enough to be born into the ruling class or bureaucracy that administrates it.)

Either way, I believe in self-determination and limited government as did our country's founding fathers.

However, I won't dispute the fact that our country has been traveling down the road to socialism for quite some time now. I think much of it started during the Wilson administration under his foreign policy advisor (and alter-ego), Colonel House, who wrote about his wanting America to conform to the ideals of Karl Marx.


Oh, one more thing - I almost forgot to mention those pesky Fabians!!